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creative-labz
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 Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:12 am Post subject:
Harmonic structures+progression....can anybody help pls? |
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can anybody help me with this question please?
1.our perception of music and timbre is based on the interaction of harmonic structures, explain why we can perceive harmonic progressions that are both consonant and dissonant. |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:41 am Post subject:
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Hmm... this sounds like a trick question..
Is this from a textbook or some coursematerial??
Truth said, it is ages since I delved deep into such matters.. but I seem to remember that what you are asking for here is some text book thingie...
Seraph, Carlo Serafini, might be better at solving this one..
Anyway, I am not going to answer this one directly..
You have two statements here..
"our perception of music and timbre is based on the interaction of harmonic structures"
and
a statement that is sought to be proved as valid based in the previous statement..
"why we can perceive harmonic progressions that are both consonant and dissonant"
It all depends really, and I really should remember the correct textboox answer... I should look that one up some day..
BUT: If you look up "The Problem of Tonality" .. you will see that the validity of "our perception of music and timbre is based on the interaction of harmonic structures" can be discussed in detail. Various breeds of musicpsychology are also stretching it in ways that argues the validity of "our perception of music and timbre is based on the interaction of harmonic structures".
If you have read some of the discussions here about music, you might see that I am proposing a "new" school that is about unification of tonal and atonal structures. Obviously I wouldn´t pass any classes in music theory with that attitude.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonality
This is a very good discussion of the term tonality in musc. way down the page you will see this section:
| Quote: | In the early 20th century, the definition of tonality which was held to have prevailed since the 1600's was felt to reach a crisis or break down point. The belief was that tonality had "snapped" because of expansion of vocabulary, decreased functionality, increased use of leading tones, alterations, modulations, tonicization, the increased importance of subsidiary key areas, use of non-diatonic hierarchical methods, and/or symmetry in interval cycles. This "crisis" lead to a series of responses, many of which were considered irreconcilable with tonal theory or tonality at all. At the same time, other composers and theorists maintained that tonality had been stretched but not broken. This lead to more technical vocabularies to describe tonality, including pitch classes, pitch sets, graphical analysis, and describing works in terms, not of their notes, but of their dominant intervals.
While tonality is the most common form of organizing Western Music, it is not universal, nor is the seven note scale universal, many folk musics and the art music of many cultures focus on a pentatonic, or five note scale, including Beijing Opera, the folk music of Hungary, and the musical traditions of Japan. Pre-classical concert music was largely modal, as is much folk and some popular music. In the early 20th century many techniques where developed and applied to tonal music, such as non-tertian secundal or quartal music. Some, such as Benjamin Boretz, consider tonal theory a specific part of atonal theory or musical set theory, which is in turn part of a more general theory of music. Many composers such as Darius Milhaud and Philip Glass have been interested in bitonality. While at one point in the middle of the 20th century classical composers interested in the twelve tone technique and serialism declared tonality dead, many composers have since returned to tonality, including many minimalists and older composers such as George Rochberg. Other composers never abandoned tonality entirely such as Lou Harrison who says he has "always composed both modally and chromatically." (Harrison, 1992) Much music today that is described as tonal is nonfunctional tonality such as in Claude Debussy, Steve Reich, Aaron Copland and many others. |
I am sorry I taking this out on the wrong track.. I simply cannot help it. 
Back to your question, aswering this "correctly" depends a bit on who is asking. It is possible to embark on different journeys depending on which school you belong to. In this case though, I am pretty sure there is some "correct" textbook answer.. hehe.. I even think I have actually learned that one once.. way back..
carlo... ???
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elektro80
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:44 am Post subject:
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I love this one:
| Quote: | | Much music today that is described as tonal is nonfunctional tonality such as in Claude Debussy, Steve Reich, Aaron Copland and many others |
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seraph
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:55 am Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: |
carlo... ??? |
well...there are plenty of informations about this matter on the links page. check them out 
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Kassen
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:23 am Post subject:
Re: Harmonic structures+progression....can anybody help pls? |
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| patrickyuis1 wrote: | can anybody help me with this question please?
1.our perception of music and timbre is based on the interaction of harmonic structures, explain why we can perceive harmonic progressions that are both consonant and dissonant. |
I´m strongly getting the impression some group of youths has decided we should do their homework for them :¬).
Patrick, if I´d get this question I´d answer "mu" and be done with it.
However that also got me into a lot of trouble in schools so let´s not do that. Let´s take the mathematical route and asume the oposite and see if we run into trouble. This is a perfectly valid way of proving stuff, many of math´s great breakthroughs are based on it.
Every sound has a timbre, thus if we can say something about sounds in general it must hold for musical sounds too. Let´s asume we could *not* preceive either consonant or dissonant timbres. If that were the case then biology and evolution being what they are some predator would evolve to make sounds that were of the veriety we could not preceive, thus gaining a tremendous benefit in hunting and eating humans. It logically follows that those who had this hearing problem would be at a severe evolutionary disadvantage. That nicely proves why we can in fact preceive them.
Completely solid proof in one paragraph, probably not what he wants to hear. Other explanations could be based on the treshold of our hearing which shouldn´t be affected by how harmonic sounds are but that would be a decidely hard thing to prove since you might get into spectral masking and what have you and end up proving the oposite in rare cases. I wouldn´t go there.
It´s a silly question, ask him to rephrase it, get a better teacher or better yet; drop out and teach yourself.
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mosc
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:54 pm Post subject:
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Harmonic structures are based on the harmonic series, which contains both consonant (perfect 4th and 5th, major and minor 3rds, etc) and dissonant intervals (2nds, 7ths, 13ths, tritones, etc). The harmonic series is neither consonat or dissonant. Sometimes we use the term harmonious to imply pleasant sounding or consonant, but if we are talking about harmonic structures, then we can have pleasant and not-so-pleasant intervals - consonant and dissonant.
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elektro80
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:25 pm Post subject:
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| mosc wrote: | | .. but if we are talking about harmonic structures, then we can have pleasant and not-so-pleasant intervals - consonant and dissonant. |
Yes, so the question is in itself a bit weird, but it sounds very familiar. Hmm.. did I have that text book too once?
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Kassen
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:28 pm Post subject:
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That´s true enough, Mosc, at least for conventional western scales, but does it answer the question? Certainly my own answer is on the provocative side but i´m fairly certain it answers the question as I understand it, however I´m also fairly certain it´s not what anybody wants to hear. The question seems to hint at some musical angle, then changes direction and instead apears to ask something existential about the senses. I must admit I have no idea what direction this is meant to go in.
I realy think poor Patrick is the victim of some badly phrased asignment. It would make a lot more sense to ask why composers use both types of harmonies in progressions or even what properties are typical of both types of harmonies. There is also some implication that the question deals with the interaction for various types of timbre as used in various types of musical progression but that would be decidedly advanced and subjective material and probably not something you´d try dealing with by asking questions in this format.
"why we can perceive harmonic progressions that are both consonant and dissonant." is quite ambiguous which is where i belive the problem might be. Is that "and" supposed to imply certain progressions are both? are they supposed to be so at the same time or depending on the context? Is "and" perhaps intended as a logical, inclusive "or"?
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mosc
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:59 pm Post subject:
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Well, if my answer doesn't answer the question, then I don't understand the question - which is why everyone is sure this is an academic question. Since in the best sense academic questions are intended to stimulate thought and facilitate understanding, then this isn't such a bad question.
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Last edited by mosc on Mon Jan 10, 2005 2:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 2:02 pm Post subject:
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jonesyj
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:25 pm Post subject:
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| ...... |
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creative-labz
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:29 pm Post subject:
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is it true that i am asking this due to assignment work,but im not just looking for an answer,im trying to learn at the same time aswell so i can understand everything for future reference.....i appreciate your help,and i guess you can see now why i am in need of help.
as i cant even understand the questions,nevermind getting on the right path to answering them
thanks guys,your inputs are helping me along the way |
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mosc
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:44 pm Post subject:
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Hey, keep em coming...
Please let us know the answer when you get it.
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Kassen
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:54 pm Post subject:
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| mosc wrote: | | Well, if my answer doesn't answer the question, then I don't understand the question - which is why everyone is sure this is an academic question. Since in the best sense academic questions are intended to stimulate thought and facilitate understanding, then this isn't such a bad question. |
yeah, or some teacher might´ve made a mistake in a last minute cut&paste rephrasing well past midnight :¬). ´like the postive additude there.
I´m still voting in favour of asking for a rephrasing (if I get to vote at all), we can get lots of thought and understanding out of well phrased questions too. There are a lot of very knowledgable people here, we all have our bookmarks and reference tomes. Frankly I think that as a group we should be able to solve next to anything related to audio that might be thrown in our direction give or take a few arcane sub-fields. I blame the question, arrogance or no arrogance. So there.
Hopefully nothing realy bad will happen to Patrick if no satisfactory answer turns up......
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seraph
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:36 pm Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: |
I love this one:
| Quote: | | Much music today that is described as tonal is nonfunctional tonality such as in Claude Debussy, Steve Reich, Aaron Copland and many others |
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that's an oxymoron: if it's tonal it's functional and if it's non functional it's not tonal. check this book  it's very interesting. Alex Ulanovsky, one of my teachers at Berklee, had made up a new category of chords in order to analyze modern jazz: zen chords chords having the function of not being functional
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elektro80
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:50 pm Post subject:
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Cool book.. They have a copy at the university library
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mosc
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:10 pm Post subject:
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A great thing about academics is how adept they are at redefining what words mean WRT their field of specilaization. Nonfunctional tonality - beautiful phrase no matter how meaningless. In fact, I guess it's prime because no meaning. You have to read the book or the entire article to see the meaning the author establishes for it. From now on, this guy it the authority for anything that uses this phrase. Brilliant.
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aquanaut
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:00 am Post subject:
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| is this question about the difference between pitch and tonality. That a pitch can be perceived structuraly only if it's in relation with another pitch |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:36 am Post subject:
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Welll ,,, might be.. it all depends on the textbook
makes me wonder if not a Rorschach test would have been just as interesting...
hey... can we make Rorschach audioblots instead of inkblots?
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Kassen
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 5:08 am Post subject:
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| aquanaut wrote: | | is this question about the difference between pitch and tonality. That a pitch can be perceived structuraly only if it's in relation with another pitch |
Worse yet; the "pitch" of a complex timbre might be preceived diferently in different contexts, espcially for noisy timbres or when things like granular or pulse train synthesis are involved.
What´s throwing me off is that the question mentions both timbre and melodic progressions. hopefully timbre wouldn´t be mentioned if it had nothing to do with the question.
Elektro; we mentioned roschaach tests for audio before, not that long ago. Perhaps we should invent such a test, then sell it on cd to psychiatrists. We could be rich; I think those inkblots are quite exspensive because they are scientiffic inkblots.
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egw
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:12 am Post subject:
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The audio rorschach test is an interesting idea.
When I'm trying to come up with a title for some music,
I listen to it with my eyes closed and see what kinds of images come up.
I'm sure this information could be very revealing in a psychological way, just like the visual test. |
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egw
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Kassen
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:29 am Post subject:
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Funny. I liked the bit about the teletuby and the sherman tank.
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mosc
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 12:43 pm Post subject:
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| Quote: | Diagnostic Overview:
Your apparent normality conceals a hotbed of twisted desires and passions, straining to break free so you can rape and pillage at will (just like everyone else). You have an apparent mistrust of your family and friends, as well as authority figures and co-workers. Hmmmm, maybe you're not so normal after all. People who answer as you did can't watch scary movies without covering their eyes.
Long-Term Prognosis:
You will need intensive therapy to succeed in living a normal life, however this also means you may make an excellent politician. Your answers clearly indicate you need a better wardrobe; this is often because of micro-manifestations of the id, conflicting with your unconcious mind (the one you use at work). |
Hmmm, seems right on to me... 
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seraph
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:46 pm Post subject:
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| Quote: | Diagnostic Overview:
Your responses indicate that your favorite sexual position is the same as that of the Kennedys. In other words, 'Defendant'. You should get some help for this, like having yourself neutered. You also don't like to be responsible for anything because you're a slacker. All your relatives are screwed up, too; it must be something genetic. People who answer as you did frequently shoplift and gamble irresponsibly.
Long-Term Prognosis:
You can be cured, but only if you stop watching The Jerry Springer Show. Meditate deeply, become aware of who you are and your place in the world. Find inner peace and become content to master yourself. Or forget all that crap and go have a beer- it's cheaper and faster. You also hate your brothers and sisters because of childhood traumas (unless you don't have any brothers or sisters, in which case, you hate someone else). |
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| Quote: | | Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer |
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