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Sound
Joined: Jun 06, 2006
Posts: 842
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 Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 8:04 am Post subject:
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| decaying.sine wrote: | I have all the resistors done for the BOM Mouser order. I included an extra column that recommends buying the number of pieces specified for the project or the next available price break--depending on the one that is cheaper. As you might guess sometimes it is cheaper to buy at the next available price break than the actual amount that you need.
I am working on caps now, but I'll wait and post everything together.
Also, my BOM of materials is identical to Oscar's original BOM. However, I am not 100% done checking yet. My suspicion is that his is accurate and it also has lead spacing for caps and that is awesome! |
Hello Decay, your work will be very useful.
I did my BOM directly from the PCB layout. I think it is exactly what was there because I counted it several times. The last three times were the same results. so I can say that it was triple-checked.
However it is a preliminary BOM, for example you could add all the IC sockets. I think also that beta building will show up a more definitive BOM including hardware and other little components.
Oscar. |
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SolderSmoke
Joined: May 21, 2007
Posts: 15
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:37 am Post subject:
PCB |
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Just got a message from Juergen that my pcb is in the post!
(... sound of rubbing my hands...)  |
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/mr
Joined: Aug 05, 2007
Posts: 223
Location: Elektron City, Sweden
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zthee
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:22 am Post subject:
Re: Ghielmetti matrices+pins on French eBay |
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| /mr wrote: | On the other hand - a pin matrix is not the perfect patching interface for a vocoder. For instance, a typical and simple operation that the user is very likely to want is: channel shifting. Moving all pins one step is a boring thing to do on a big vocoder like this, and after moving them and listening to the result, you might want to try another shift step as well. Or two. Or shift back...  |
What interface design do you suggest?
I'm torn between making a big 4U panel with all the bells and whistles, or a 1U panel with basically only input/output.
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tomcat
Joined: Oct 14, 2005
Posts: 141
Location: earth
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:51 am Post subject:
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1U input output only would be a waste for this vocoder 
Im thinking about a big panel or maybe a semimodular version too. Some examples how to do useful combinations would be helpful! |
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zthee
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:08 pm Post subject:
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| tomcat wrote: | | 1U input output only would be a waste for this vocoder |
I know, but I meant in a "less is more" kinda way
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tomcat
Joined: Oct 14, 2005
Posts: 141
Location: earth
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:48 pm Post subject:
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| Take a look at the EMS3000, i think this would be an inspiration for a dezent (small ) frontpanel/interface for the living vocoder |
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zthee
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:54 pm Post subject:
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I was more thinking in the terms of the EMS 2000. But the 3000 gives me new ideas!
Feels like I need to do some sketches... Now if only I could get a clear grip on what the actual functions are.. 
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tomcat
Joined: Oct 14, 2005
Posts: 141
Location: earth
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:02 am Post subject:
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The EMS 2000 functions are too limited. I think for this project its worth to start with functions similar to EMS3000, Sennheiser,...
After soldering that many parts you dont want to wire just a few pots. You have to wire a massive amount of pots, switches and jacks to create a huge mess of cables |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:01 pm Post subject:
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Some hints from my side:
Build the PCB, with only the essential things attached (transformer, power transistors on a big heatsink), a couple of potentiometers and switches, and fine tune (and debug!) it in that state. Everything that might go to a matrix, or channel pots, or channel input/output jacks can be bypassed with one simple jumper in each channel.
You can try (and debug) the vocoder in that state, and *then* decide on which uses interface you want for it.
JH.
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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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zthee
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:21 pm Post subject:
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I'd like to know more about the ExcMode, S_Mode and Ns_Mode. Could anyone please explain it to me?
My guess is, for example the Ns_Mode - switches the noise on or off?
I'll spend a few more hours staring at it trying to figure it out. But if anyone could give me a hint I'd really appreciate it!
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:33 pm Post subject:
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| zthee wrote: | I'd like to know more about the ExcMode, S_Mode and Ns_Mode. Could anyone please explain it to me?
My guess is, for example the Ns_Mode - switches the noise on or off?
I'll spend a few more hours staring at it trying to figure it out. But if anyone could give me a hint I'd really appreciate it! |
There are 3 replacement signals:
The audio input signal
Noise
Rectified and HP-Filtered audio input signal ("S")
For each one, you can select a mode: Whether it's used permanently, or just when a voiced or unvoiced condition is detected in the speech input signal.
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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zthee
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
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Location: Stockholm
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zthee
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:07 am Post subject:
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Sorry, trying to understand this...
Seeing that the comparator, that controls the FET which lets through the appropriate signal, is being run on +/-5V means it should be nullified with the switch in the -10V position and on "auto" if the switch is neither +10V or -10V? I.e. the detection system turns on or off the FET. And constantly on if the switch is in the +10V position?
Or am I wrong and it's just a on/off function?
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:13 am Post subject:
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| zthee wrote: | Sorry, trying to understand this...
Seeing that the comparator, that controls the FET which lets through the appropriate signal, is being run on +/-5V means it should be nullified with the switch in the -10V position and on "auto" if the switch is neither +10V or -10V? I.e. the detection system turns on or off the FET. And constantly on if the switch is in the +10V position?
Or am I wrong and it's just a on/off function? |
+v10 means "positive voltage number 10", not 10V. Actually, something close to 12V.
You're using on/off/on switches to control these modes.
Looking at J2601 a an example, when the switch is in mid position (no connection), the FET gate is controlled by the "voiced" signal.
With the switch connecting it to +v10, the FET is always turned on, an dwith the switch connecting it to -v10, the FET is always turned off.
So you can have the normal (voiced, external) replacemaent signal either
permanently activated, or
switched by the voiced/unvoiced detector, or
turned off.
Similar functions for the noise, and the S-Generator replacement signals.
They can be switched on permanently,
be activated by the unvoiced detector signal, or
switched off permanently.
This all works quite well the way it is.
All you need is to do some level balancing, i. e. change resitor values to get the noise (unvoiced) level down compared to the voiced level.
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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zthee
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:50 pm Post subject:
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Everything is now as clear as it possibly could every be! So thank you sir, I'll go back to sketching on my suggested front panel. And once I built the board I'll test the functions and see if they're actually useful the way I'd like to use a vocoder.
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/mr
Joined: Aug 05, 2007
Posts: 223
Location: Elektron City, Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:16 pm Post subject:
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| zthee wrote: | | /mr wrote: | | On the other hand - a pin matrix is not the perfect patching interface for a vocoder. For instance, a typical and simple operation that the user is very likely to want is: channel shifting. Moving all pins one step is a boring thing to do on a big vocoder like this, and after moving them and listening to the result, you might want to try another shift step as well. Or two. Or shift back... |
What interface design do you suggest? |
I'm not sure, there seems to be no perfect solution... but I'd definitely like a rotary switch or up/down buttons for channel shifting. Which needs some advanced matrix machinery beneath the surface, I have some sketches going...
When it comes to channel potentiometers, I strongly recommend to avoid ordinary rotary pots. It's extremely unreadable and unergonomic with 20 of them in a row. Use sliders instead, even if the panel is a bit harder to make.
| tomcat wrote: | | zthee wrote: | | I'm torn between making a big 4U panel with all the bells and whistles, or a 1U panel with basically only input/output. |
1U input output only would be a waste for this vocoder |
I totally agree. Anything smaller than EMS3000 is out of the question.  |
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zthee
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:45 pm Post subject:
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| /mr wrote: | | When it comes to channel potentiometers, I strongly recommend to avoid ordinary rotary pots. It's extremely unreadable and unergonomic with 20 of them in a row. Use sliders instead, even if the panel is a bit harder to make. |
It's just not that the panel is harder to make - Finding nice 5K audio sliders seems next to impossible!
I had always planned to use sliders. But right now I'm stuck with normal potentiometers. I'm kinda pleased with the design, not sure about the ergonomics as you say though...
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/mr
Joined: Aug 05, 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:30 pm Post subject:
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| zthee wrote: | | /mr wrote: | | When it comes to channel potentiometers, I strongly recommend to avoid ordinary rotary pots. It's extremely unreadable and unergonomic with 20 of them in a row. Use sliders instead, even if the panel is a bit harder to make. |
It's just not that the panel is harder to make - Finding nice 5K audio sliders seems next to impossible! |
5k is kind of odd, yes. Would 10k pots give problems?
(Would the nearby 220n caps have to be changed, or something similar?) |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:01 pm Post subject:
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| /mr wrote: | | zthee wrote: | | /mr wrote: | | When it comes to channel potentiometers, I strongly recommend to avoid ordinary rotary pots. It's extremely unreadable and unergonomic with 20 of them in a row. Use sliders instead, even if the panel is a bit harder to make. |
It's just not that the panel is harder to make - Finding nice 5K audio sliders seems next to impossible! |
5k is kind of odd, yes. Would 10k pots give problems?
(Would the nearby 220n caps have to be changed, or something similar?) |
It would be a compromise. - What about using a stereo 10k slider and connecting both sections in parallel?
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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tomcat
Joined: Oct 14, 2005
Posts: 141
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:22 pm Post subject:
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You can find 5k audio sliders from Alpha, do a search on mouser.
Generally the options with audio taper are limited, would like to use one of the nice led equiped sliders but ... no audio taper in 5 or 10k.  |
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/mr
Joined: Aug 05, 2007
Posts: 223
Location: Elektron City, Sweden
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:57 am Post subject:
 1% filter caps anyone?
Subject description: one more person needed for group buy! |
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Hi!
Is anybody interested in getting the 1% filter caps for this project? (144+144 pieces) 
I'll be ordering caps for 6 persons, likely from RS, and if I find a 7th person (here in Europe) we're reaching beyond 1000 pieces, at a lower price!
I don't know the final price yet, but if you'd just like to get the caps at a decent price without spending your time on searching among the alternatives yourself, please PM me - and you can focus on building your vocoder instead of sourcing the most hopeless components. |
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tomcat
Joined: Oct 14, 2005
Posts: 141
Location: earth
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:44 pm Post subject:
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| Possibly me. Maybe you can post the rs-numbers? Have to check if its cheaper for me to buy with the group or to buy direct as company (no tax,...). |
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zthee
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:27 am Post subject:
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| /mr wrote: | | 5k is kind of odd, yes. |
Just found that Penny+Giles makes 5K audio sliders. Expensive. But nice.
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decaying.sine
Joined: Aug 31, 2009
Posts: 92
Location: New Haven, CT, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:02 pm Post subject:
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I'm getting a little closer. I have about 1500 parts soldered now. Just did the fancy caps! I have to order some resistors and some of the more common variety of caps.
I may be talking non-sense here, but I thought I'd bring up this idea for feedback. If someone already mentioned it, I apologize for my oversight.
If we can establish reasonable starting values for the resistors that need optimized, would it be possible to select a potentiometer with a value of say, 25% higher in resistance (I selected that arbitrarily) and then put a jumper between the wiper and CCW pin on the pot and then solder CW and CCW in the circuit? Wouldn't this give you a nice ability to use a rotary pot to quickly move through different resistance values while the circuit was in use (e.g., panning from 100k to 0 resistance with the pot)?
Again, this could be non-sense, but I thought I'd throw it out there. |
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