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steampump
Joined: Oct 22, 2004 Posts: 76 Location: switzerland
G2 patch files: 14
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 1:08 pm Post subject:
wave shape to overtone partials |
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Is there a simple programm on pc who can convert the shape of a wave into overtone partials?
And is maybe able to track an overton thru a sample?
Sounds a bite like resynthesis . I know we cannot do this with the G2 but the data could be usefull to create new sounds. _________________ Artworks Music Computer |
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Kassen
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Joined: Jul 06, 2004 Posts: 7678 Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:12 pm Post subject:
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That´s a facinating question! Never heard of something like it, if it doesn´t exist somebody should give it a go. It would proably involve lots of fft and some convolution but I´m missing the realy clever step you´ll need to go from a impulse-response to a waveshaping curve. _________________ Kassen |
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Kassen
Janitor
Joined: Jul 06, 2004 Posts: 7678 Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:14 pm Post subject:
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Whoops, I misread and am going the wrong way. Isn´t what you are asking for simply a specialised spectrum analiser? _________________ Kassen |
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Rix
Joined: Aug 08, 2004 Posts: 83 Location: Breda, the Netherlands
Audio files: 2
G2 patch files: 25
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:33 pm Post subject:
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Wave to overtone, or time domain to frequency domain is the Fourier transform.
there are many programs that can do it, like Cooledit Pro or the WinScope program mentioned elsewhere in the forum.
But a spectrum is not a static thing, it changes over time.
A 3D plot of a spectrum, with time, frequency and amplitude axes is a good tool for analysing sound.
Richard |
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steampump
Joined: Oct 22, 2004 Posts: 76 Location: switzerland
G2 patch files: 14
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:42 pm Post subject:
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The idee is to use the base of Acxel technogie in a rough way but not in real time to analise a sound and the recreat it in additive synthesis like on a Kawai K5. If i can have the envellope shape of each major ovetone , it should be easy to recreate the sound (or a fake).
I have cool edit 2000 . I first need the meaning of the datas and how to convert them in
F1,F2 etc
Well a 3D display of the data would be easier... _________________ Artworks Music Computer Last edited by steampump on Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Kassen
Janitor
Joined: Jul 06, 2004 Posts: 7678 Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:04 pm Post subject:
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I think you are reinventing the phase vocoder, albeit a specialsed one. The problem isn´t in the analysis, the problem is usually what to do with the data once you get it out. tracking a single overtone isn´t that hard; you cah just filter your wave down to a very narow region, then look at the amplitude curve of that region. For three or four overtones you could do that manually but for, say, twenty it becomes much less fun.
Every time topics like this pop up people start saying how good Bidule is for this stuff so I´ll do the same; lotsa people say plogue bidule is the shit for this stuff.
:¬) _________________ Kassen |
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steampump
Joined: Oct 22, 2004 Posts: 76 Location: switzerland
G2 patch files: 14
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:28 pm Post subject:
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I'm not shure if its the right way.
3 things need to be extracted
Global enveloppe , Pitch enveloppe , and wave shape analyse.
I means each sample have to tuned to same pitch before making the shape analyse.
For rough exemple : the sound can go from a sinus to a square and end with a triangle. _________________ Artworks Music Computer |
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ian-s
Joined: Apr 01, 2004 Posts: 2669 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Audio files: 42
G2 patch files: 626
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:06 pm Post subject:
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praat does what you want, designed for voice but will work on any periodicish wave file. Learning curve's a bit steep but worth it. And its free.
Also, CSound has some stand alone analysis stuff for phase vocoding and heterodyne etc. You may have to write your own code to plot the results though. |
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Kassen
Janitor
Joined: Jul 06, 2004 Posts: 7678 Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:27 pm Post subject:
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Pump; no need to track overall volume, it will be implied in the volume curves of the partials anyway.
G2ian; I was thinking about Csound´s spectral data stuff too but that´s far from a simple program. In fact that corner of Csound is esoecially complex and obscure, I never heard anybody say "Yeah, tonight we´ll be treating some spectral data types" cheerfully. Plotting the envelopes once you have them is easy though; you could just write them as wave files, since Csound can write textfiles and the file format of the G1´s patches used to be fairly readable in the early versions you could conceivably have Csound generate pch files (or rather set a couple of dozen veriables in a otherwise static file). Better yet; you could set up a standard patch with osc. tuning and envelope segments linked to cc´s and have Csound controll the G2.
For bonus points; involve LISP in some way, then spend the rest of the evening arguing this was unavoidable and indeed the most interesting element of the setup. Send results to Hartman. _________________ Kassen |
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ian-s
Joined: Apr 01, 2004 Posts: 2669 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Audio files: 42
G2 patch files: 626
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:07 pm Post subject:
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CSound is awesome, almost as awesome as the endless patience of those who actually use it. |
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Kassen
Janitor
Joined: Jul 06, 2004 Posts: 7678 Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:29 pm Post subject:
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Fully agreed. _________________ Kassen |
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Chet
Joined: Nov 19, 2004 Posts: 231 Location: Lititz,PA,USA
Audio files: 7
G2 patch files: 35
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:03 pm Post subject:
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Kassen is right, what you're describing is a tracking phase vocoder.
PVAN 2.0 is a tracking phase vocoder for Windows that may do what you want. It's pretty easy to use. You just give it a sample file, and enter the frequency of the fundamental pitch. It will analyze the sound, and display amplitude and frequency envelopes for the individual harmonics.
It only works for periodic sounds with integer harmonics. Bells, for example, will produce garbage. But because it's a 'tracking' phase vocoder, it will accept minor deviations in harmonic frequency, and create a graph that contains the frequency envelope.
It's a free research tool, and can be downloaded. |
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steampump
Joined: Oct 22, 2004 Posts: 76 Location: switzerland
G2 patch files: 14
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steampump
Joined: Oct 22, 2004 Posts: 76 Location: switzerland
G2 patch files: 14
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:29 pm Post subject:
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I found another free tool for spectral analysis
Look for SMS Tool 2 , this programm is free and makes both analysis and synthesis.
Here the adress
http://www.iua.upf.es/sms/
I found also a little tool to convert wav into add data for K5000 not test yet but maybe usefull to. I will test it tomorrow. _________________ Artworks Music Computer |
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wildbill
Joined: Apr 28, 2004 Posts: 46
G2 patch files: 2
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:31 pm Post subject:
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steampump: could you post a link for the tool for the k5000 please.
i'd be very interested in trying something like that. |
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steampump
Joined: Oct 22, 2004 Posts: 76 Location: switzerland
G2 patch files: 14
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:52 am Post subject:
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Chris Dalton's wav2add
http://www.stoffelshome.de/download/wav2add.zip
The program is extracting the data from a single wave not from a sound sample.
The programm works only in DOS mode.
On my XP and W98 it does not generate the output data file. But you can copy and paste the data from the windows frame.
My idea is to take the wave from different position within a sound , put them in Exel and plot the curve for each partial. Then i want to use ADSR to fake the partial curve. But first i need to test if the data gives the same wave back with G2 or K5 befor losing to much time. _________________ Artworks Music Computer |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24079 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 278
G2 patch files: 320
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 9:21 am Post subject:
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To get the output data into a file you can run the program with a command line like :
wav2add in.wav>out.ka1
I looked into the source code, judgeing from that the verification is performed by the program itself.
It first analyzes the data and it then makes an out.wav by summing the partials it found. So comparing your in.wav to the generated out.wav in a wave editor should give you some clues about the quality.
It will be a lot of work with this program to make a dynamic analisys ...
Jan. |
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steampump
Joined: Oct 22, 2004 Posts: 76 Location: switzerland
G2 patch files: 14
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:26 pm Post subject:
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input and output.wav are just 2 step away from random. The program work only with very simple wave shapes.... _________________ Artworks Music Computer |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24079 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 278
G2 patch files: 320
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:37 pm Post subject:
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And when you play the waves repeatedly, do they then sound the same ?
Two very differently looking waves can still sound almost the same.
Jan. |
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Sander_k
Joined: Jan 28, 2005 Posts: 57 Location: The Netherlands
G2 patch files: 16
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Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:49 pm Post subject:
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Jan, i've been looking at that 'raw2patch' program where you made a graphical interface for.. ain't that exactly the program that Steampump needs? Wouldn't it be nice if the code for G2 patches where as modifiable (if accessible at all) as with the G1?
certainly with all the new shaping possibillities i think the G2 will be an even more powerfull machine if the patches where as modifiable
@Steampump, what is the length of the wave you want to analyze btw?
As mentioned earlier, you can as well look at the piece of wave in CE pro's spectral view i think |
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paul e.
Joined: Sep 22, 2003 Posts: 1567 Location: toronto, canada
Audio files: 2
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Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:52 pm Post subject:
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this probably won;t help you guys as i think it may be mac-only..biut Metasynth is a nifty app...and i believe it can perform the task
http://www.uisoftware.com/MetaSynth/index.html
at any rate, check this app out..it's very cool , i love it... _________________ Spiral Recordings |
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rnp
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 55 Location: germany
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:17 am Post subject:
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Metasynth really is great. I've been playing with the demo since it was released, seriously considering saving up for this one. _________________ http://www.regicide.org
deer music
offering temporary solutions |
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