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 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » WREN
Questions about Wren
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InfernalGrape



Joined: Aug 08, 2023
Posts: 12
Location: MSK

PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2023 12:25 pm    Post subject: Questions about Wren Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi! I found out about WREN from reading various threads about Nord Modular, so it caught my interest. But I would like to ask what you can tell me about it!

Like, how it compares/differentiates to/from NMG2 and/or other similar virtual modular software/digital solutions. What do you love using it for. What do you think it's strongest point so far. What might be added to it in the future (if there are plans). Do you use it as "one of many instruments", or create the whole compositions and albums with it. Stuff like that.

TL;DR I'm thirsty for impressions/opinions from happy users, I'm really curious.
Sorry if I'm asking too much, but perhaps you would enjoy answering such questions, so here we go...
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blue hell
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2023 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well - maybe then I am the only user left .. all I can say about it though is that I've made it and still use it as my only synth Cool
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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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InfernalGrape



Joined: Aug 08, 2023
Posts: 12
Location: MSK

PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2023 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh! Well, it's definitely good when creator of instrument enjoys their creation! That's pretty DIY approach, isn't it Smile

Where can I listen to examples of what you are doing with it? I tried searching videos but couldn't find much yet.
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blue hell
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2023 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah DIY .. i had wanted some extra stuff on the nord modulars but waiting for an NM3 took too long.

Also the Kyma only worked so-so here with a very odd user interface as well, which was really too bad as I had wanted one for decades or so.

Anyway .. only solution was to do something myself Cool

And listen ..

Just about everything i've done & posted here for the last five years or so .. maybe longer .. https://electro-music.com/mp3media.php?forums=&owner=Blue+Hell

And then what I'm doing with it right now is live on radio 6 :: https://electro-music.com/radio/ - that mostly is some self playing patch that will go on for days .. weeks at times Wink

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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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InfernalGrape



Joined: Aug 08, 2023
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2023 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks, will check that!

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airlock



Joined: Apr 06, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2023 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I like playing with WREN but have never had a PC that will run the more complex patches, but what does work here works pretty good. I do need to upgrade my PC soon.
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InfernalGrape



Joined: Aug 08, 2023
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello once again! Very Happy

Finally installed Wren, and now trying to browse the large collection of example patches (thank you for those).

However, I still have more questions now...

1) For some reason, Wren refuses to recognize included dlls. The only one Wren recognizes for me is portaudio-r64, but when it comes to libfftw3-64, r8bsrc and espeak-64, these are "not found" even though they all exist in Wren's root folder, together with abeforementioned portaudio. So when I open some patches, it says that this or that module can't initialize. How could I fix that?

2) Is there an option to zoom in/zoom out editor? It was already a "problem" a bit for me in Nord Modular G2 Software that it looks pretty tiny on my 1920x1080 display, sure I more or less see stuff but it's a bit heavy on eyes - and with Wren the experience is similar. Perhaps it's aimed at smaller resolutions or bigger monitors, but I hoped for option to scale interface.

3) Any reason why Wren process never uses more than ~40% of my CPU? That's what I see when I open complex patches that might stutter (with 90+ Wren built-in cpu stats) on 88k sample rate. My CPU is just 4 core 4 threads though.

4) Is having MME as API good enough? I don't have ASIO installed on this computer currently (and I don't have a dedicated sound card, instead it's just Realtek), and I somehow couldn't get sounds working with other options. MME seems working for me, so I stay with it now.

Best wishes!
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blue hell
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

1) hmm .. i have no idea .. what windows version and in what folder?

2) No, there is no zoom option - maybe it will run at 150% windows scaling or so .. I have it at 1920x1080 with a 15" screen btw with no scaling

3) Seems like you have two CPU's then: Wren runs on one CPU and the percentage Wren shows is for that one CPU. The percentage that windows shows is anoverall value.

4) Whatever works I'd say - latency may be lower for ASIO or WASAPI, which is not so relevant for self playing stuff but it is when using external MIDI - like a keyboard or so.

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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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InfernalGrape



Joined: Aug 08, 2023
Posts: 12
Location: MSK

PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thank you for reply.

Quote:
hmm .. i have no idea .. what windows version and in what folder?


I'm using Windows 10, which is 64-bit. And Wren that got installed via installer is "win64r 2023.2.8.0".

Installation path I chose was "H:\APPS\WORK\Wren". So it's not "µsoft owned" folder.

This is how it looks for me:

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

When I read log, it seems to acknowledge that directory:

Quote:
0000:00 243 [STARTUP ] ** Note: all DLLs are being searched for in the following folders:
0000:00 250 [STARTUP ] H:\APPS\WORK\Wren\
0000:00 256 [STARTUP ] H:\APPS\WORK\ImageMagick-7.1.0-Q16-HDRI
0000:00 263 [STARTUP ] C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Intel\Shared Libraries\redist\intel64\compiler
0000:00 271 [STARTUP ] C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Oracle\Java\javapath
0000:00 277 [STARTUP ] C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Intel\Shared Files\cpp\bin\Intel64
0000:00 284 [STARTUP ] C:\Windows\system32
0000:00 290 [STARTUP ] C:\Windows
0000:00 298 [STARTUP ] C:\Windows\System32\Wbem
0000:00 305 [STARTUP ] C:\Windows\System32\WindowsPowerShell\v1.0\
0000:00 312 [STARTUP ] C:\WINDOWS\system32
0000:00 320 [STARTUP ] C:\WINDOWS
0000:00 327 [STARTUP ] C:\WINDOWS\System32\Wbem
0000:00 334 [STARTUP ] C:\WINDOWS\System32\WindowsPowerShell\v1.0\
0000:00 342 [STARTUP ] C:\WINDOWS\System32\OpenSSH\
0000:00 350 [STARTUP ] C:\Program Files (x86)\NVIDIA Corporation\PhysX\Common
0000:00 358 [STARTUP ] C:\Program Files\Common Files\Autodesk Shared\
0000:00 372 [STARTUP ] C:\Program Files (x86)\ZeroTier\One\
0000:00 385 [STARTUP ] C:\Program Files\dotnet\
0000:00 393 [STARTUP ] C:\Users\Asus\AppData\Local\Programs\Python\Python310\Scripts\
0000:00 402 [STARTUP ] C:\Users\Asus\AppData\Local\Programs\Python\Python310\
0000:00 410 [STARTUP ] C:\Users\Asus\AppData\Local\Microsoft\WindowsApps
0000:00 419 [STARTUP ] C:\Users\Asus\AppData\Local\Programs\Microsoft VS Code\bin
0000:00 427 [STARTUP ] C:\Users\Asus\.dotnet\tools


By the way, how does it know about all those additional software folders?

Then it says it succeeded with finding PortAudio:

Quote:
0000:00 437 [STARTUP ] PortAudio: probing DLL presence, looking for "portaudio-r64.dll"
0000:00 444 [STARTUP ] PortAudio (portaudio-r64.dll): found in path as [H:\APPS\WORK\Wren\portaudio-r64.dll]
0000:00 455 [STARTUP ] PortAudio: PortAudio DLL found one or more times, the first instance found should be the used one
0000:00 523 [STARTUP ] PortAudio: Pa_Initialize returned code 0
0000:00 523 [STARTUP ] PortAudio: DLL found, version is "PortAudio V19-blue-hell-2 (built Jun 24 2020 19:27:32)"


But refuses to recognize others...

Quote:
0000:00 542 [STARTUP ] FFTW DLL not found in path, some modules will not work
0000:00 550 [STARTUP ] ESpeak installation not found in registry (HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\TypeLib\{7192AA2F-F759-43E9-91E7-226371EF6B2F}\1.0\), or the DLL is not on the path


Weirdly, it doesn't even try to mention r8bsrc at all.
And as you see on screenshot, all of them are in main Wren folder, after installation from installer.
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blue hell
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

1) Odd stuff, it looks all good (except for not working Wink ) ...

Is H: a portable or an external drive maybe? No idea what that would have to do with it .. but ..

Maybe copy all Wren stuff to C:\wren and see what happens when you run it from there?

2) Wren knows about the additional folders trough the windows registry - which is where the PATH environment variables (a system one and a user one) are kept.

Automatically the current folder (where the executable was started from) is added to that (even when it not actually is in any PATH).

You can edit these from the windows settings and installed software will often add itself on installation.

Maybe you could add H:\APPS\WORK\Wren to one of the PATH variables .. although such /should/ not help Rolling Eyes

3) In my own logs r8bsrc is not being mentioned either ..I forgot why that is again .... probably loaded only when needed (it is used for modules using audiofiles, and I am not currently using any of those).

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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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InfernalGrape



Joined: Aug 08, 2023
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, I'm back after some testing... Razz

Quote:
Is H: a portable or an external drive maybe?


No, it was an additional HDD that was added to my desktop, so it stays there all the time, inside of computer tower.

Quote:
Maybe copy all Wren stuff to C:\wren and see what happens when you run it from there?


I've now tried that, and it didn't work. Confused

Quote:
Maybe you could add H:\APPS\WORK\Wren to one of the PATH variables .. although such /should/ not help


Now, this... seemingly made a change! Shocked
Or at least partially.

It says this now:

Quote:
0000:00 736 [STARTUP ] probing FFTW DLL presence, looking for "libfftw3-64.dll"
0000:00 747 [STARTUP ] FFTW DLL found (it has no version information)
0000:00 757 [STARTUP ] ESpeak installation not found in registry (HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\TypeLib\{7192AA2F-F759-43E9-91E7-226371EF6B2F}\1.0\), or the DLL is not on the path


I can confirm that r8bsrc, I guess, finally works now. Because I can open patch named "mobile information complex" which, from what I remember, was needing it. It doesn't give errors anymore when I open it, and I can hear stuff when I run it.

With FFT, I'm not sure yet. By any chance, do you remember which of your patches used it? So I open and check.

As for digital speech, I think it's still troubling (as it says in the debug console). I tried openining "czar powder" but didn't hear any voices (though I don't know if they should be there from the very start - when looking into your patch examples, I noticed you often create compositions where certain sounds appear over the time; I caught myself listening to them for a decent amount of time, haha!).
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blue hell
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ah, that sounds good then .. but still a little odd ..

As for ESpeak it needs it's own installation before theWren interface to it can work.

And then re. what modules in which patches ..I would have to check ..but eh am a bit busy with other stuff right now .. speech is bit .. hmm .. soso .. I guess ...

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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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InfernalGrape



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, thanks for help, I'm glad progress was reached so I now can enjoy Wren more Cool

Quote:
but still a little odd ..


I hope this case somehow gives you food for thoughts, maybe the mystery will be resolved one day. And if someone would have similar situation, hope they'll find the "adding to path" solution here. I really love format of forums because often you can find something important some years later via googling. Which is not the case with more private communities like facebook or discord.


Quote:
As for ESpeak it needs it's own installation before theWren interface to it can work.


Ok, perhaps I'll try that later.

Quote:
And then re. what modules in which patches ..I would have to check ..but eh am a bit busy with other stuff right now .. speech is bit .. hmm .. soso .. I guess ...


Ah, don't worry! I'm still going through your patch examples so sooner or later I'll bump into one that uses FFT. Btw where can I talk about which ones I liked the most? Smile I'm currently listening to "ocean in the bottle", wonderful sounds Twisted Evil

To conclude, I'd like to thank you again for making an awesome instrument, and for providing support on it. I'll be having pretty large road of learning ahead (in both Wren and NMG2S), but for now it seems pretty exciting.

Cheers!
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blue hell
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

InfernalGrape wrote:
I hope this case somehow gives you food for thoughts, maybe the mystery will be resolved one day. And if someone would have similar situation, hope they'll find the "adding to path" solution here. I really love format of forums because often you can find something important some years later via googling. Which is not the case with more private communities like facebook or discord.


yeah, may it help - and when I find some time I'll have a look at it - thanks for trying things Cool

Quote:
Btw where can I talk about which ones I liked the most? Smile I'm currently listening to "ocean in the bottle", wonderful sounds Twisted Evil


Thanks Exclamation and you [can | should be able to] open a new topic from https://electro-music.com/forum/forum-230.html .. scroll down to the bottom there.

Quote:
I'll be having pretty large road of learning ahead (in both Wren and NMG2S), but for now it seems pretty exciting.


Have fun!

btw: NMG2S .. is that the CSound version of the Nord?

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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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InfernalGrape



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Have fun!


Will do!



Quote:
btw: NMG2S .. is that the CSound version of the Nord?


Oh, no... I just meant Joshy's edit of G2 Demo Software. I wish it had dx7 and other stuff unlocked though, as some cool patches from this forum use that heavily.

On a related note, does Wren also lack Yamaha style "not really FM" operator modules? I've read module reference on website and didn't find such mentioned. Asking just in case. Don't know what's your take on that subject. Personally I grew up on listening to video game chiptune music that used stuff like Yamaha YM2151 or YM2612, so it's pretty nostalgic for me. I also dream about getting FS1R sometimes Laughing
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blue hell
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Owokay... the demo Cool

Lots of, most?, oscillators have a PM input for Phase Modulation .. and this is linear and it is what Yamaha called FM .

Also there is a speed input for linear frequency control which can make similar sounds.

FM and Cent are exponential, which will cause a detune when used.

There is not a module for operator routing (like the G2 has) - routing must be patched, maybe using mixers.

In general there are different names for the same thing .. like AM for ring modulation (when anunipolar modulator is being used) (and it is just multiplication, and most/all? oscillators can be set to unipolar - or otherwise use a ctrl module for the conversion).

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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InfernalGrape



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2023 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ah, I see! I forgot that you can actually recreate that manually (especially because how different it feels when you work with "operators and algorithms" on yamaha machines, and when you work with modulars).

After some googling, I've found this research of how to imitate DX7 on NM1, seems pretty helpful as starting point/reference:

https://www.cim.mcgill.ca/~clark/nordmodularbook/fmalgorithms.htm

Tbh, I can't stop being pleasantly surprised how deep NM community went into almost scientific sonic explorations back in days. And I'm glad that resources are still reachable, meanwhile plenty of ones from 90s and early 00s disappeared already. Then again, I'm happy to see that E-M is still here (and I'm now participating on it, ha).
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