Sad observation

[mosc]

Sometime in the last month, the number of American soldiers killed in the war in Iraq passed the number of members of electro-music.com. Last I heard there were over 1800 killed in action. We have 1762 members.

There is, of course, no correlation between the two counts, but I have always been fascinated by numbers - especially numbers of people - especially dead ones. Maybe it has something with my being born Jewish and always pondering the 6 million killed in WW2. What is 6 million? How to get a conception of this?

One thing I did in my youth to try to comprehend this was to play an oscillator, and run it into a counter. I would wait for the number of zero crossings to hit 6 million. It is a very depressing long wait.

Here is a conceptual description: Start off slowly, one click per second, and crank it up to A 440. You can't count 440 per second, but you can hear it as a tone and 440 is a number you can conceive of. Listen to it and think that every vibration is one person. You have to listen this continuously for 3 days, 18 hours and 43 minutes to get 6 million.

Anyway, 1800 is a lot of kids. I know they are grow men and women, but when I seen their pictures on the evening news, they all look like kids to me.

There are tens, if not hundreds, of non-Americans killed for every American soldier in Iraq since this war started. I'm not saying the American soldiers have killed them all. The official policy of the American government is not to publish estimates of these people killed.

God help us: we have so little regard for human life that we don't even count those that die as a result of this discretionary war. Bush says he values life, unlike the Nazis. But at least the Nazis counted.

[v-un-v]

Mosc, it's also 60 years today since the American army dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima, Japan.

[deknow]

howard,
i know we don't agree on these kinds of issues, and i too see every one of these lives lost as tragedies. thinking of "6 million" seems to me the same kind of tribalism that leads to all war..."6 million of us" is really only about half the number that were killed in concentration camps, and any minority group would have eventually become part "of the problem to be eliminated".....this is the lesson of hitler, not that he killed jews.

i'm pretty thick skinned, but "at least the nazi's counted" offends me on every level. do you really see this as the biggest differance between what the us is doing in iraq and what hitler did to jews, gypsies, homosexuals, catholics, etc? i know the war gets you upset, and i have the utmost respect for your perspective, but i can't imagine that you really mean this.

deknow

[elektro80]

[elektro80]

[elektro80]

BTW: isn´t the modern term "collateral damage" amusing?

[mosc]

[v-un-v]

[deknow]

i don't think it's really possible (or responsible) to have such a discussion without looking into history a little...without such perspective, these are just "large numbers". i feel pain over this as well, but i think there are a few things that have to be kept in mind.

1. 1800+ deaths is a high and horrible price. in other wars, it wasn't uncommon for 1800+ to die in a single battle, in a matter of days. please don't interpret this as "it's only 1800", as that's not where i'm coming from...it's more that despite how much killing one another sucks, it has _always_ been a part of the human experience, and it is an accomplishment that the numbers in this war are, in comparison to the past, significantly lower.

2. saddam killed 5000 kurds in one shot. the us didn't help things much there, but the us didn't pull the trigger either. this was of course not an isolated incedent...saddam was a murderous tyrant who ruled by killing, torture, and fear....and the iraqi's are very likely going to live better for his being disposed. you can fault the us if you don't like how this was done, but (as we have discussed before), the un, france, germany, and russia all played their part in keepiing him in power for financial gain despite his having invaded kuiat, and despite international sanctions (un oil for food, and oil contracts that were not permited under the sanctions).

3. in any previous war (as far as i can tell), someone with a gun in a battle area with no uniform would have been shot on the spot (by any nations forces, not just the us). this has not been the practice in iraq (thank god), and these fighters are generally taken into custody. tens (if not hundreds) of thousands have been taken into custody under such circumstances, and most have been released. yes, there are problems with detaining anyone, but if these people had just been shot (as the practice used to be), there would be no one complaining about prison abuse....this is (i think) progress.

4. i don't know how one goes about counting the number dead "on the other side". you are bound to either drastically overestimate or underestimate the numbers. i agree that it should be done (and i doubt it's not being done), but i'm not sure how well it can be done. certainly, like any "intelligence" (the art of knowing what you are not supposed to know) you are damned either way you lean, and i can understand the govt not wanting to make statements that are "wrong" no matter what they do. the us is faulted for "overestimating" the wmd problem in iraq (and this is by no means a bush or republican problem....clinton was right on board with these estimates), and the british are faulted for "underestimating" the potential for terrorism in their public transit system.....neither one looks good in hindsight, and both are deadly assumptions.

5. as far as i can tell (and someone please correct me), this is a war where it would be easier and less costly to just bomb the fuck out of iraq without setting foot on the ground....killing people indiscrimately until whomever is left surrenders, and never set foot on the ground....it seems much more difficult to try and police things and help them develop a constitution and self determination...this is the hard way to do things, not the easy way out.

6. i too grew up with the "6 million" number impressed upon me, and i agree with stein that these were "ordinary people" commiting these attrocities. this is why i feel the lesson of the holocost was not "jews were killed" but that "groups were targeted"....this is the danger, and what we have to make sure does not happen again.


i do find it somewhat ironic that you credit the nazis for couting the people they killed, but you cite only the number of jews....one could say "at least the nazi's counted the gypsies, homosexuals, and catholics they killed...you didn't even do that!" (i want to put a smiley face here because i'm pointing out something ironic, but i don't think it's approprate here).

deknow

[elektro80]

[mosc]

Deknow:

1) Yes, more people have died in other wars. This seems irrelevant to me.

2) Yes, Sadaam was a bad evil dictator and it is a likely Iraqs are eventually going to live better for his being disposed. Still, it seems like we could have picked a smarter way to get rid of him.

3) True, the US soldiers do everything they can not to kill innocent people. Still, a lot of innocent people are dying.

4) I'm glad you agree we should count the bodies.

5) Yes, this is the hard way to do things, not the easy way out. Sometimes, it is better to do the smart and intellegent thing, not the hard thing.

6) Yes, "groups were targeted"....this is the danger. Still, when you are a member of one of the "groups", it's more personal.

[elektro80]

Yes, it is indeed personal.

That being said, 911 and the attacks in London aren´t really much different from the Bomber Command´s terrorbombing/moral bombing during World War 2. It is a way to systemically affect a population. The term terrorism doesn´t in a proper way address this. Many US and UK politicians see this. This is truly warfare using means well known from World War 2.

Related to this is of course the fact that the US isn´t the only player in Iraq. I did disagree with the reasons for going to war and how it was done. However, with the situation as it is in Iraq now, I am not sure the US should withdraw right now.

[v-un-v]

[Dovdimus Prime]

[v-un-v]

[v-un-v]

[mosc]

I wouldn't just immediately withdraw form Iraq now because it would leave a lot of people who collaborated with us to be victims of radical extremists that would take over.


But not admitting this thing is a big mistake and poorly managed is also not the best thing either. Certainly, the US and British governments are either totally incompetent or they criminally lied to their people about the presence of WMD and the absolute urgency for us to invade and occupy Iraq. I personally think they lied because after Powell spoke at the UN they then sent our intelligence guys to France, Germany and Russia with the evidence - alll three countries said there was no evidence. I remember Putin saying, "They showed us their evidence of the weapons of mass distuction and there is no evidence."

Afghanistan was different from Iraq.

1) There was already in place an Afghani force (the Northern Alliance) we could support
2) We had the support of the world, including Syria, Russia, France, Germany, and China.

It is apparent that the US and British governments did not expect this Iraqi insurgency to develop and to be so strong. They have shown time after time that they don't understand Arabs and radical Islam. Bush and Blair are like two stupid kids that think you can get rid of a hornets nest by knocking it down with a stick.

So here we are in a really ugly situation. Nothing will improve until we get rid of the people who got us into this situation. These guys don't know how to admit they made mistakes and they are unable to learn. New leaders will at least be able to think of solutions more clearly and will have some credibility to implement them. In the meantime, we can count the dead and feel the pain.

Now, Bush is saying that to honor those who have already died, we must stay the course. This is military nonsense. A good military leader keeps himself emotionally detached from his decisions, keeps reviewing the facts, and adapts continually to the ever changing situation on the battle field. He never says, "This attack is failing but we can't retreat because it will dishonor those who have died." Maybe staying the course is the best course of action, but lets not do it for nonsensical reasons. It's making up reasons that got us into this mess in the first place.

[jksuperstar]

[deknow]

...i can only speak for myself. i'm not convinced that the war in iraq was a huge mistake....the only way we could know would be to live a paralell timeline and see what saddam would have done in last 3 years. we do know that he gassed 5000 kurds apparantly without remorse of any kind. we also know that he played a 12 year cat and mouse game with the iaea and with the terms of the cease fire....not to mention the initial invasion of kuiat, and the general brutality with which he ruled.

wmd's were certainly a large "selling point" for the war (especially by the media), and just as certainly, saddam wanted everyone to think he had them (i think of a cartoon bank robber with his finger in his pocket pretending there is a gun inside...one would expect such a robber to be shot). would he have obtained them? did he have them and they end up in syria (i think this is fairly likely, but it would probably take military action in syria to find out...and i don't think this would be a wise move)? certainly i don't think anyone would doubt that he would use them if given the chance....but it was not simply wmd's that were the basis for the war.....it was 12 years of dancing around the conditions of the cease fire with clearly dishonest (and destructive) intentions (including paying the famillies of suicide bombers).

when i think of the situation in iraq (and i do so quite a bit), i think also about the holocost. i think about the us not being willing to take refugee children because it was "inhumane" to separate children from their parents. i also think about how many millions of lives might not have been extinguished if the us (and the rest of the world) had the balls to say "this is not right" instead of ignoring things until they show up on ones doorstep....would we even know what had been averted? (i'm not sure). hindsight is always more accurate than foresight, and although i'm willing to accept that dropping sanctions might have been able to help foster an internal uprising, i'm not sure what would have happened in the intervening time....were the people so frightend that they could not afford to even think in revolutionary terms (i suspect this is the case)? what atrocities would saddam have committed in the meantime? (i don't know, but i think i would rather not find out).

i don't really expect to change anyones mind here. i certainly didn't see anyone in the last us presidential election who seemed willing to admit their own mistakes, and certainly not someone who i think would make better decisions....this is sad, but true, i wish i thought it was as simple as electing "the other guy" or "some other guy".....i'm afraid there is much more to be done before it is possible to elect someone better.

i also grew up as part of "the group who lost 6 million" in the holocost...this is (at least from my perspective) a very important thing to overcome. there is only "us" (not the u.s., but "us"), we are all on the same marble, and more individuals have the power today to cause more death and pain than has ever been the case before in history. being jewish has been difficult and dangerous many times and places through history...jews using the "6 million" number seems to me to be doing more to keep separate from "them". there were 12 million plus humans killed in cold blood. it was just as brutal to do so to a gypsy as to do so to a jew...while we say "look what was done to us in the holocost" we are being tribal....we are separating ourselves in much the same way hitler separated the jews and other groups from the rest of society...this is the wrong direction. we must see ourselves as members of the human familly and care eqully about all of our familly members. this is how minority groups need to be treated in any civilized city/nation/planet, and there is no way we can come together by saying "look what was done to my group", we must say "look what was done to innocent humans".

deknow

[ian-s]

[Dovdimus Prime]

Hi V. Thanks for your responses. I'm sorry if you're offended - that was not my intention.

[elektro80]

[seraph]

[seraph]

[jkn]