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cebec
Joined: Apr 19, 2004 Posts: 1098 Location: Virginia
Audio files: 3
G2 patch files: 31
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Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:40 pm Post subject:
Black Lion Audio will take a crack at modding a Nord G2 |
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I spoke with Matt who runs Black Lion Audio and he agreed to take a look at a Nord G2 for possible modification of its analog stage and clock. He even does converter upgrades. He has a good reputation (on GearSlutz and TapeOp, at least) and his prices are reasonable for audio interface modifications.
I will probably get around to sending mine it but if anyone wants to preempt me, please feel free. He's friendly, fast, and definitely open to at least looking at and measuring the performance. I mentioned adding digital outs, as well, and he said he would consider that possibility, too. His prices go up Nov. 1st, though.
They're also interested in the E-MU audio interfaces and if anyone wants to send in one of those he could measure it and suggest mods, if necessary.
http://www.blacklionaudio.com/home.html |
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13rian
Joined: Sep 19, 2006 Posts: 34 Location: NYC
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Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:24 pm Post subject:
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this is great news. i thought of contacting them about this, but hadn't. they do amazing things with MOTU interfaces over there. i can't wait to hear his feedback.
- b |
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dasz
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1644 Location: victoria, canada
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Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:33 pm Post subject:
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How much would he charge to do this to a g2?
/Dasz |
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cebec
Joined: Apr 19, 2004 Posts: 1098 Location: Virginia
Audio files: 3
G2 patch files: 31
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:00 am Post subject:
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i don't know. but if you go by the prices quoted for the other interfaces, i'd say it's in that ballpark or less. it seems like clock and analog stage upgrades for 8 ins and 8 outs is between 3 and 400 USD.
he said i could go ahead and send in either my E-MU 1616m or my G2 and they'd see what they can do. he's especially interested in the E-MU line but would be more than willing to look at a G2 and make measurements/suggestions. |
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13rian
Joined: Sep 19, 2006 Posts: 34 Location: NYC
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:41 am Post subject:
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man, if i hadn't just spent so much money at ikea yesterday, i'd buy a new engine and send it to him myself. i run just about everything in my live rig thru my g2 and would love to improve the "non-modular" signal path.
- b |
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cebec
Joined: Apr 19, 2004 Posts: 1098 Location: Virginia
Audio files: 3
G2 patch files: 31
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:47 am Post subject:
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I know. I was thinking of buying an Engine, even a used one, to send to him, too. |
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jksuperstar
Joined: Aug 20, 2004 Posts: 2503 Location: Denver
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:52 am Post subject:
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Funny, I also have both of those devices But I'm having surgery on my left knee meniscus today, so I'll need my toys around me for the next few weeks!
Be sure if you send something in, to record a few test cases first. Be nice to A-B them later. |
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13rian
Joined: Sep 19, 2006 Posts: 34 Location: NYC
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:53 am Post subject:
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ya, good point. the 'before' sample is so easy to forget in all the excitement. |
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cebec
Joined: Apr 19, 2004 Posts: 1098 Location: Virginia
Audio files: 3
G2 patch files: 31
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:55 am Post subject:
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yeah, certainly. when the time comes i'll check back and see if we can agree on a methodology for recording those 'before' samples.
good luck with your surgery! enjoy the R&R, though. |
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13rian
Joined: Sep 19, 2006 Posts: 34 Location: NYC
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:59 am Post subject:
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yes, good luck! |
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astroid power-up!
Joined: Mar 23, 2004 Posts: 334
G2 patch files: 15
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:44 pm Post subject:
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does the clock mod mean that there could be the possibility of a tap tempo? _________________ Astroid Power-Up!: "googleplex" available at:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/googleplex |
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13rian
Joined: Sep 19, 2006 Posts: 34 Location: NYC
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:00 pm Post subject:
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clock in this case refers to the digital signal and conversion to and fro with external analog signals. better clocking leads to a clearer conversion, especially when using multiple channels. a good solid clock can keep all the channels marching in time together, but this is at the sample rate and not related to the tempo clock.
- b |
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sebber
Joined: Aug 27, 2004 Posts: 501 Location: Berlin
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G2 patch files: 33
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Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:15 am Post subject:
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Sorry for being so clueless: what can I expect from such a modification? _________________ Fish don't swim. They dive. |
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cebec
Joined: Apr 19, 2004 Posts: 1098 Location: Virginia
Audio files: 3
G2 patch files: 31
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Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:57 am Post subject:
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sebber wrote: | Sorry for being so clueless: what can I expect from such a modification? |
It's possible that a clock and analog stage upgrade could result in a more pleasing or measurably 'better' sound. The analog components that support the ADC/DAC are just as important to the perceived sound quality as the DAC itself... maybe more.
The clock implementation may also play a role in the raw sound of an instrument such as the G2 -- lower clock jitter (in the low picosecond range) may equal better sound.
A combination of a high-quality analog stage and a sophisticated clock implementation, as seen in a standalone DAC like the Benchmark DAC-1, for example, can cost as much as a G2 Engine.
Whether or not we'd hear or measure the difference or our signal chain warrants such a potentially costly/risky modification is another matter.
There's a ton of material on the www about jitter, especially. Here's one short article:
http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/appnotes-d/jittercu.html
I read that an RME Audio engineer claims their newer products use a technique called Random Spread Spectrum in their SteadyClock technology to reduce jitter in external clock signals, for instance, and that this is different from Benchmark's method which uses continuous SRC (sample rate conversion). The measurable jitter is higher in RME's implementation but somehow, according to this engineer, has a negligible effect on sound quality and may even be preferable because it doesn't use continuous SRC.
All of this goes to show, I think, that despite such low-level nitpicking and and engineering, things are not always 0s and 1s. |
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jksuperstar
Joined: Aug 20, 2004 Posts: 2503 Location: Denver
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Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:31 pm Post subject:
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Yes, just to add my 2 cents, all discrete math, which is the fundamental math behind "modern" digital signal processing, and most digital<->analog conversions, ASSUMES that a perfect sample rate, or clock, exists. This clock is not the "tempo" clock, but the clock that drives when each sample is taken, or operated on, or drive out through a DAC. It does not account for any jitter that is in that clock. Jitter causes the digital world to no be what it could be, destroying phase information, cause distortion (unwanted signal modification), and to the layman, makes things sound "flat" instead of "alive".
This would make the G2's clock, supposedly, closer to perfect (less jitter), and as such cause the audio produced to be better as well.
For myself, I'd prefer that a digital I/O solution be made for the G2, and see what additions could be made for the 1616 (I'd imagine the 1616 would be limited to capacitor upgrades, and maybe an op-amp or two. That thing was very well designed). My 1616 has finally hit the end of it's warranty period...hmmmmm.
I'll contact them and see if there's anything I can do to help, since I have nothing but time on my hands. |
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13rian
Joined: Sep 19, 2006 Posts: 34 Location: NYC
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Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:35 pm Post subject:
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cebec wrote: |
Whether or not we'd hear or measure the difference or our signal chain warrants such a potentially costly/risky modification is another matter. |
yes, it is certainly a tough call. i would think that as far as the usual synth creations there would NOT be a significant improvement, although i could be wrong. i figure that the folks at clavia built the virtual analog engine based on the box as it ships and there probably isn't a whole lot of hidden audio treasure lurking in the tone generators. i am guessing that this type of mod WILL improve the processing of external audio though. then again it could make G2's burst into flames.
- b
ps - digital i/o would be cool in my book too. |
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Kassen
Janitor
Joined: Jul 06, 2004 Posts: 7678 Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3
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Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:53 pm Post subject:
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jksuperstar wrote: |
For myself, I'd prefer that a digital I/O solution be made for the G2, and see what additions could be made for the 1616 (I'd imagine the 1616 would be limited to capacitor upgrades, and maybe an op-amp or two. That thing was very well designed). My 1616 has finally hit the end of it's warranty period...hmmmmm.
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You mean the 1616m, right? the 1616 has the same DAC's as the G2, after all.
Do you think it would benefit from something like that? I myself can't find a fault with it aside from the atrociously bad test signal module, the converters sound the part to me. _________________ Kassen |
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jksuperstar
Joined: Aug 20, 2004 Posts: 2503 Location: Denver
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Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:09 pm Post subject:
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Yes, I have the 1616m, but don't know if the analog front-end is identical between the two models (1616 vs. 1616m). I think it sounds great as well. I'm sure there are capacitors inthe signal path, and upgrades to those would be expected, maybe to opamps as well. I am perfectly happy with it as it is.
As for inputs, can't find fault there either. The mic pre-amps are very transparent, and VERY low noise. Never used the RIAA preamps though.
Because of this, I'm *interested* in what the Black Lion folks could come up with. Anyone who can take some this good & make it better, would be impressive. Although, maybe they want to look at one is because it has a reputation for good sound, and they want to learn a trick or two? |
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MitchK1989
Joined: Sep 30, 2006 Posts: 10 Location: Canada
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:02 pm Post subject:
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hmm. I wonder how hard it would be to mod the G2 to have the G1 DACs... |
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dasz
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1644 Location: victoria, canada
Audio files: 29
G2 patch files: 56
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Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:33 pm Post subject:
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I simulate other DAC by using digitizer modules and dithering
Just finished 7 patches this weekend.
/Dasz |
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sebber
Joined: Aug 27, 2004 Posts: 501 Location: Berlin
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:08 am Post subject:
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Dasz, do you happen to have a building block for the G1 DAC simulation? And, ahm, would you share it? _________________ Fish don't swim. They dive. |
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dasz
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1644 Location: victoria, canada
Audio files: 29
G2 patch files: 56
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:22 am Post subject:
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I was kidding, thus the
Seriously, I do downsample with the digitizer module(s) and mix this with the raw signal to add something different to the Nord sound, but not to mimic a specific high quality DAC.
I am curious what the modded output stage of a G2 will sound like after black lion is done with it.
/Dasz Last edited by dasz on Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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dasz
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1644 Location: victoria, canada
Audio files: 29
G2 patch files: 56
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sebber
Joined: Aug 27, 2004 Posts: 501 Location: Berlin
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Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:56 am Post subject:
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Didn't get the , but you being so friendly served me none the less. Thanks! _________________ Fish don't swim. They dive. |
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dasz
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1644 Location: victoria, canada
Audio files: 29
G2 patch files: 56
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Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:37 am Post subject:
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Sebber,
The " " was a happy idea/alternative to try a different DAC configuration internally if black lion audio does not go ahead with offering to do this mod commercially ...
jksuperstar wrote
[quote ]Although, maybe they want to look at one is because it has a reputation for good sound, and they want to learn a trick or two? .[/quote]
Let me know if this patch is useful.
/Dasz |
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