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The End of Common Practice

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bachus

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Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:15 am Post subject:

seraph wrote:

bachus wrote:

I just can’t relate except through music.

who wrote all your messages Question

I'm sorry to disappoint you but if you spend time with us you can't possibly be too misanthropic Very Happy

Yea, but I'm protected from you by the separation provided by the net. Wink

Sorry, the putrid fingers of developers are grasping at the lands around us. People! The end of my precious, my beloved pristine silence. May Be Moving to Montana Soon

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bachus

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Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:00 am Post subject:

sebber wrote:

You might want to find out how classical and most modern composers work.

Well, actually I knew that. I dropped out of school and began studying music composition with the composer William Hoskins and made that my full time pursuit when I was 15 years old and continued that course for some years. If you have any doubts there are people on this list that can verify it by first hand account. So “you might want to” check your reliance on assumptions a bit. Very Happy

My own approach is relatively structured. The structure of the chromatic fugato I’m working on was conceived before hand. After creating a subject from the passascaglia’s theme suited to timbral self interaction I outlined the structure and shape of tension: Exposition, interlude, stretto exposition, interlude, more diminished stretto, slow and unravel preparing for the passacaglia. Then set pitch extrema. And though trained to work with paper and pencil and it is faster. I have found that I get results more personally meaningful by walking and listening in my head to the musical ideas that swirl around the preconceived structures. Physical motion while working is important to me. If I were more coordinated I would try improvisation for that reason. The music I appreciate most is that which seamlessly integrates mind and body, intellect and passion.

Edit:
When elsewhere I said that listening was my training I was thinking in terms of the important stuff, i.e. the fine points of musical aesthetics.
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mosc
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Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:56 am Post subject:

bachus wrote:

For sure. it's called being a smart ass.

Either that or a dumb shit. Laughing

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bachus

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Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:25 am Post subject:

mosc wrote:

bachus wrote:

For sure. it's called being a smart ass.

Either that or a dumb shit. Laughing

Then, some times it's hard to tell the difference Confused

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kkissinger
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Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:06 am Post subject:

mosc wrote:

...dumb shit. Laughing

Quote:

Granny on agriculture:

"No shit. No roses."

sebber

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Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:25 pm Post subject:

bachus wrote:

Well, actually I knew that. [...]

Oh no, now I've been the smart ass. I didn't mean to offend you or doubt your knowledge at all. I recently explained to someone else what composing (in the narrow, classical sense) means and since I didn't know your background I just hit repeat. Sorry for that.

I guess I'm not expressing myself so well, what part is it you wanted me to make more clear?
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seraph
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Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:46 pm Post subject:

sebber wrote:

I didn't mean to offend you or doubt your knowledge at all.

are we a nice community or what Question

people so kind to be ready to apologize.
as the poet said: "sorry seems to be the hardest word" who was it Question

Garcia Lorca Question

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bachus

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Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:20 pm Post subject:

seraph wrote:

sebber wrote:

I didn't mean to offend you or doubt your knowledge at all.

are we a nice community or what Question

people so kind to be ready to apologize.
as the poet said: "sorry seems to be the hardest word" who was it Question

Garcia Lorca Question

Yea, no problem sebber. If hard feelings were allowed to accumulate around here no one would ever reply to my posts. Laughing

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bachus

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Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:40 pm Post subject:

sebber wrote:

I guess I'm not expressing myself so well, what part is it you wanted me to make more clear?

sebber wrote:

some of the most sophisticated music is in concept and in the way it was composed (including Beethoven), totally intellectual.

Thanks for offering to help me understand this: What do you mean by "composed totally intellectual." I do not understand because it does not seem possible:

My relevant assumptions: To my understanding only a person deaf from birth (or a bad computer program) could do that. Because only they could reduce the process to pure symbol manipulation*. Brahms said that the best performances of his scores were in his head. A composer sitting at her desk with pencil and paper still hears in her head the music she is writing. And that hearing cannot help but inform the writing. And it seems to me for any musically sensitive person, to hear is to feel. It seems to me also that the fine points of musical aesthetics have to be felt. They are not in any text nor are they teachable as far as I can tell. One has to feel subtle differences in momentum, tension, expectation, etc. to create compelling art. The application of the craft of composition** can be intellectual but does not to my mind constitute totally intellectual composition at least as I can understand these words.

*Yes there are stochastic methods that have been around a very long time but I'm not talking about that.

**Or even The Craft of Composition Wink

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seraph
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Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:32 pm Post subject:

bachus wrote:

A composer sitting at her desk with pencil and paper still hears in her head the music she is writing.

why you use feminine pronouns Question

just curious Very Happy

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sebber

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Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:52 am Post subject:

Let's turn it round to make in easier for me and harder for you: what music do you feel to be purely intellectual then? Sorry seems to be the hardest word - wans't that a Serge Gainsbourgh song? The one he wrote for his daughter? [ugh, bad taste joke here] _________________ Fish don't swim. They dive.

bachus

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Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:35 am Post subject:

seraph wrote:

bachus wrote:

A composer sitting at her desk with pencil and paper still hears in her head the music she is writing.

why you use feminine pronouns Question

just curious Very Happy

Because it jars a bit. If it didn't you wouldn't mention it. The Mrs. convinced me long ago that until it no longer jars, society has yet to reach gender equality. So, from time to time, make 'em uncomfortable and question the psychological import of such pronoun usage. Underneath that sweet granny looking quilter exterior there's a true feminist!
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seraph
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Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 5:23 am Post subject:

bachus wrote:

Because it jars a bit. If it didn't you wouldn't mention it.

so it was on purpose, you nasty boy Cool

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bachus

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Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 5:45 am Post subject:

seraph wrote:

so it was on purpose, you nasty boy Cool

What can I say, I have an uncontrollable urge to prod people into thinking about important issues. As I get older it only gets worse. Shocked

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bachus

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Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 5:58 am Post subject:

sebber wrote:

Let's turn it round to make in easier for me and harder for you: what music do you feel to be purely intellectual then?

I have to protest that this seems unfair but I will respond anyway.

For starters: An unambiguous example of music "composed totally intellectual" would be algorithmic music that was not fine tuned by ear. I.e that did not conform to this assertion from another thread:

ThreeFingersOfLove wrote:

Any kind of algorithmic composition application can be fine-tuned to meet the criteria for a particular style or genre. But it's the programmer (or musician) who does this job by continuous feedback: by fixing problems here and there, improving it with new features and watching how it responds to his input. This is the only way - unless someone wants to talk DNA computing and bio-informatics. Cool

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seraph
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Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject:

Quote:

AFFECTIVE KEY CHARACTERISTICS

from Christian Schubart's Ideen zu einer Aesthetik der Tonkunst (1806)

C Major
Completely Pure. Its character is: innocence, simplicity, naïvety, children's talk.

C Minor
Declaration of love and at the same time the lament of unhappy love. All languishing, longing, sighing of the love-sick soul lies in this key.

Db Major
A leering key, degenerating into grief and rapture. It cannot laugh, but it can smile; it cannot howl, but it can at least grimace its crying.--Consequently only unusual characters and feelings can be brought out in this key.

C# Minor
Penitential lamentation, intimate conversation with God, the friend and help-meet of life; sighs of disappointed friendship and love lie in its radius.

D Major
The key of triumph, of Hallejuahs, of war-cries, of victory-rejoicing. Thus, the inviting symphonies, the marches, holiday songs and heaven-rejoicing choruses are set in this key.

D Minor
Melancholy womanliness, the spleen and humours brood.

Eb Major
The key of love, of devotion, of intimate conversation with God.

D# Minor
Feelings of the anxiety of the soul's deepest distress, of brooding despair, of blackest depresssion, of the most gloomy condition of the soul. Every fear, every hesitation of the shuddering heart, breathes out of horrible D# minor. If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key.

E Major
Noisy shouts of joy, laughing pleasure and not yet complete, full delight lies in E Major.

E minor
Naïve, womanly innocent declaration of love, lament without grumbling; sighs accompanied by few tears; this key speaks of the imminent hope of resolving in the pure happiness of C major.
F Major
Complaisance & Calm.

F Minor
Deep depression, funereal lament, groans of misery and longing for the grave.

F# Major
Triumph over difficulty, free sigh of relief utered when hurdles are surmounted; echo of a soul which has fiercely struggled and finally conquered lies in all uses of this key.

F# Minor
A gloomy key: it tugs at passion as a dog biting a dress. Resentment and discontent are its language.

G Major
Everything rustic, idyllic and lyrical, every calm and satisfied passion, every tender gratitude for true friendship and faithful love,--in a word every gentle and peaceful emotion of the heart is correctly expressed by this key.

G Minor
Discontent, uneasiness, worry about a failed scheme; bad-tempered gnashing of teeth; in a word: resentment and dislike.

Ab Major
Key of the grave. Death, grave, putrefaction, judgment, eternity lie in its radius.

Ab Minor
Grumbler, heart squeezed until it suffocates; wailing lament, difficult struggle; in a word, the color of this key is everything struggling with difficulty.

A Major
This key includes declarations of innocent love, satisfaction with one's state of affairs; hope of seeing one's beloved again when parting; youthful cheerfulness and trust in God.
A minor
Pious womanliness and tenderness of character.

Bb Major
Cheerful love, clear conscience, hope aspiration for a better world.

Bb minor
A quaint creature, often dressed in the garment of night. It is somewhat surly and very seldom takes on a pleasant countenance. Mocking God and the world; discontented with itself and with everything; preparation for suicide sounds in this key.

B Major
Strongly coloured, announcing wild passions, composed from the most glaring coulors. Anger, rage, jealousy, fury, despair and every burden of the heart lies in its sphere.
B Minor
This is as it were the key of patience, of calm awaiting ones's fate and of submission to divine dispensation.

Translated by Rita Steblin in A History of Key Characteristics in the 18th and Early 19th Centuries. UMI Research Press (1983).

http://www.wmich.edu/mus-theo/courses/keys.html

http://www.library.yale.edu/~mkoth/keychar.htm

isn't it interesting? we lost all these nuances with 12tET

bachus, don't tell me that you own "A history of key characteristics in the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries", 1983 by Rita Steblin.
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bachus

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Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:10 am Post subject:

seraph wrote:

bachus, don't tell me that you own "A history of key characteristics in the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries", 1983 by Rita Steblin.

Sigh...no I don't.
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bachus

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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject:

seraph wrote:

Quote:

AFFECTIVE KEY CHARACTERISTICS

Seraph do you know off-hand the tuning that is the context for these subjective evaluations of key center? A little poking around the links did not answer that for me, could be I missed something.

But here's a really interesting quote from your second link.

Quote:

Many theoretical works of the eighteenth century explicitly assign certain affectations or emotional characteristics to different keys. Though these writings often contradict each other as to what these characteristics actually are, it is well known that many composers carefully chose keys for similar affectations throughout their lives. To Mattheson, for example, D major was "somewhat shrill and stubborn," while to Rousseau it was suited to "gaiety or brilliance."

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seraph
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Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:36 am Post subject:

bachus wrote:

Seraph do you know off-hand the tuning that is the context for these subjective evaluations of key center?

I think they refer to "well-temperaments" because you are supposed to be able to play in each major and minor key so, it's neither meantone nor phytagorean. JI is out of the question and 12tET too (of course). So what is left?
Considering also that list was written in 1806 by Christian Schubart (Ideen zu einer Aesthetik der Tonkunst) I conclude it's "well-temperaments" he's talking about Idea

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mosc
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Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:28 am Post subject:

Personally, these key emotional impacts seem very much less important that the sonority of each key vis a vie the instrument. For example, a clarinet sounds different in C major than in G major because the timbre changes up the range of the instrument. The same for most wind and string instruments. For example, if the tonic and the 5th fall on open strings vs a key where that doesn't happen. On the piano, that timbrel difference is also present, but also there is the effect of the fingerings. The way the hands line up with the keys has subtle but distinct effects on the music. Ever try to play the blues in C# on a piano? _________________ --Howard my music and other stuff

bachus

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Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:25 pm Post subject:

mosc wrote:

Personally, these key emotional impacts seem very much less important ...

Everything you say there certainly rings true for my ears.

Still, it would be very interesting to know the distribution of and depth of sensitivity to keys/well-temperaments among the population at large and among musicians.
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bachus

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Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject:

seraph wrote:

bachus wrote:

Seraph do you know off-hand the tuning that is the context for these subjective evaluations of key center?

I think they refer to "well-temperaments"...

But which one? I don't remember the particulars of the various well temperaments but I think their squeezing and stretching of intervals is not sufficiently consistent across them to allow the keys to have the same "meanings" in every one of the temperaments in use. Unless I am miss remembering.
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seraph
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Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:13 pm Post subject:

bachus wrote:

But which one?

I don't know what Shubart was thinking about that day of 1806 Shocked

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bachus

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Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:20 pm Post subject:

seraph wrote:

bachus wrote:

But which one?

I don't know what Shubart was thinking about that day of 1806 Shocked

Perhaps he had golden ears?
(see quote below)
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bachus

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Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject:

seraph wrote:

bachus wrote:

But which one?

I don't know what Shubart was thinking about that day of 1806 Shocked

Or perhaps it had to do with those factors suggested by mosc.
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