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sonicwarrior
Joined: Dec 22, 2005
Posts: 266
Location: Cologne, Germany
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 Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:40 pm Post subject:
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| johans121 wrote: | | Is it too late to be added to the list? |
Which list?
Did I miss something?  |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:47 pm Post subject:
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| sonicwarrior wrote: | | johans121 wrote: | | Is it too late to be added to the list? |
Which list?
Did I miss something? |
Not at all. I haven't even asked for official orders. (I will, in a few weeks.)
It's nice to see some sustained interest in this, though.
Meanwhile I've build and am testing the current version of these boards, and while I do this, I start writing directions for adjustment.
You'll find the current state of it here (updated today, but not complete):
http://www.jhaible.heim.at/fs1a/fs1a.html
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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Serenadi
Joined: Jul 03, 2007
Posts: 89
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:58 pm Post subject:
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| jhaible wrote: | | (I will, in a few weeks.) |
Good to know.
This thread had fell asleep a little bit.
| jhaible wrote: | | It's nice to see some sustained interest in this, though. |
Of course there is!  |
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funkyfarm
Joined: Jan 21, 2007
Posts: 583
Location: France
Audio files: 3
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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:06 am Post subject:
Subject description: Preamp ? |
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Hi Jurgen,
I'm afraid I didn't understand if a SSM2017 wil be involved in the input stage ? with its four-position "Gain switch" ?
modern equivalent THAT1510 would be fine ?
Cheers,
ff |
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neandrewthal
Joined: May 11, 2007
Posts: 672
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:26 am Post subject:
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| Is it ok to use your average cheap vertical trimpots? Those cermet types are damned expensive. |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:35 am Post subject:
Subject description: Preamp ? |
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| funkyfarm wrote: | Hi Jurgen,
I'm afraid I didn't understand if a SSM2017 wil be involved in the input stage ? with its four-position "Gain switch" ?
modern equivalent THAT1510 would be fine ?
Cheers,
ff |
I haven't tested it with any of the current 2017 replacements yet, but the intention is indeed to provide the surrounding circuit for 2019 or other drop-in replacement chips. (They are drop-in replacements, aren't they?!)
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:51 am Post subject:
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| neandrewthal wrote: | | Is it ok to use your average cheap vertical trimpots? Those cermet types are damned expensive. |
Anything that physically fits on the board and has the right resistance will work.
Adjustments are much more comfortable with multiturn pots, though.
And a multiturn pot isn't substantially more expensive than a good (Cermet!) single turn trimpot. So I chose Multiturn where it makes sense to have fine resolution (offsets mostly), and single turns where many rotations would be an obstacle (like, level adjustments).
The consequences of cheap pots ... I don't know ... maybe you'll have to re-adjust them after a few months? Or maybe not.
The good thing about DIY is that everyone can choose what component he or she thinks to be the best. Just take my silkscreening as a recommendation ...
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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funkyfarm
Joined: Jan 21, 2007
Posts: 583
Location: France
Audio files: 3
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:48 pm Post subject:
Subject description: Preamp ? |
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| funkyfarm wrote: |
I guess FS-1 can't work at 10volts p-p from input to output.
Modular signals have to be lower to "line level" with this SSM input stage ? |
It all depends how you set up the input level switch or potentiometer.
Look at the input amp schemo for my _old_ FS-1: A 4-position rotary switch is used to adapt sensitivity from dynamic microphone to synthesizer signals. In the least sensitive position, there's a resistor divider in front of the 2017 inputs.
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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funkyfarm
Joined: Jan 21, 2007
Posts: 583
Location: France
Audio files: 3
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:14 am Post subject:
Subject description: Preamp ? |
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| jhaible wrote: |
Look at the input amp schemo for my _old_ FS-1: A 4-position rotary switch is used to adapt sensitivity from dynamic microphone to synthesizer signals. In the least sensitive position, there's a resistor divider in front of the 2017 inputs.
JH. |
Oh yep, a 3-pole/4-position one !
I've forgot the preamp rotary switch.
We can have it for roughly 10Vpp, +4dBu, -10 HiFi and Mic ?
| Quote: | | I've forgot the preamp 4-position rotary switch. |
So the panel will clearly looks like this :
The GREEN and RED leds in the preamp section are part of the Noise Reduction System, what does they lit for ?
http://jhaible.heim.at/tonline_stuff/hjfs4_nr.gif
Envelope detector and input stage clipping ? |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject:
Subject description: Preamp ? |
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| funkyfarm wrote: |
We can have it for roughly 10Vpp, +4dBu, -10 HiFi and Mic ?
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Well, you can set this to any value you like, by choosing the resistors.
| funkyfarm wrote: | | So the panel will clearly looks like this : |
No. No on-board cheap LFO anymore. But some other usefull stuff.
Either a patchable extra all pass filter chain, or simply a switch labelled "Frequency Shifter - Barberpole Phaser"
LEDs are for good level (green) and overload (red)
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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vtl5c3
Joined: Sep 08, 2006
Posts: 425
Location: PDX
Audio files: 13
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:12 pm Post subject:
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Juergen,
If I recall correctly, your FS PCB will have two dome filters on it? If so, does the board have everything needed to use both FS inputs for external audio signals? Ever since I read about the Serge (FRSX) I've wanted to experiment with something like that.
Happy Yule, y'all!
Romeo |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:31 am Post subject:
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| vtl5c3 wrote: | Juergen,
If I recall correctly, your FS PCB will have two dome filters on it? If so, does the board have everything needed to use both FS inputs for external audio signals? Ever since I read about the Serge (FRSX) I've wanted to experiment with something like that.
Happy Yule, y'all!
Romeo |
Hi Romeo,
no, just a single Dome filter.
| Quote: | | Ever since I read about the Serge (FRSX) I've wanted to experiment with something like that. |
Same here. But ever since I've actually tried it, I wend back to the classic on-board QVCO method, and never looked back.
That experiment was intended to become the "FS-2".
I'll explain the problems as good as I can:
The idea is not to use a quadrature VCO as modulator, but an ordinary VCO (or any other external input), and create the required quadrature signals internally, with a second dome filter.
The problem is, the usual dome filters are band limited to the audio range. That means, if you put a very slow modulation signal into it, you don't get any quadrature signals. So the whole range of slow modulations doesn't work.
Now I thought I'm not stupid, I can create an "extended range dome filter", which has more sages, and gows down way into the subsonic range.
I built such a filter, and it worked perfectly as it should - but it was completely unusable. I got dramatic sideband and/or carrier bleedthru, even though the Dome Filter was precise to better than 1deg from the milli-Hertz range to 20kHz or so.
Why on earth was that?
The problem is that there are no periodic signals in the real world. And we're accustomed to the usual approximations, that make _almost_ perjodic signals work just like truly periodic signals.
But not so a dome filter that is built on time constants of several seconds, to cover the subharmonic range.
In practice, every change of input frequency (like, changing the frequency shift amount from 100Hz to 150Hz with the turn of the knob), contains sub-audio sidebands that will also be processed by that dome filter, and this causes terrible artefacts for several seconds. That's the same as the sidebands in FM radio, only in ultra-slow-motion, such that _manually_ changing the frequency already acts as severe frequency modulation.
Of course this can be avoided if you stick to an ordinary dome filter on the second input (and I guess that's what the Serge does), but then you loose the low frequency modulation capability ...
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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Moogah
Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 26
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:26 pm Post subject:
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Just sticking my head in to add a +1 interested person to this PCB 
Very much looking forward to building this! |
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bugfight
Joined: Aug 02, 2007
Posts: 188
Location: Arlington, TX USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:14 pm Post subject:
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| Moogah wrote: | Just sticking my head in to add a +1 interested person to this PCB
Very much looking forward to building this! |
hehe, more and more midiboxers showing up here...
+1 for me as well. this thing sounds killer! |
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b-funk
Joined: Jul 17, 2007
Posts: 193
Location: Berlin
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:09 pm Post subject:
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| bugfight wrote: |
hehe, more and more midiboxers showing up here...
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yeah, ucapps will become a very lonely place in near future...  |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:59 pm Post subject:
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Your discovery of the VLF effect is very interesting, Juergen. Will this exclude the ability to use these around zero or through zero, for very slight shifting? That's where my interest lies in your project, as my Buchla 285 (unfinished) isn't supposed to go very far down in frequency.
Holiday cheers. |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject:
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| Peake wrote: | Your discovery of the VLF effect is very interesting, Juergen. Will this exclude the ability to use these around zero or through zero, for very slight shifting? That's where my interest lies in your project, as my Buchla 285 (unfinished) isn't supposed to go very far down in frequency.
Holiday cheers. |
Mike - sorry for taking so long to reply.
As long as the Modulation signal is created by a quadrature oscillator (and not a - second - dome filter + a normal oscillator), everthing is fine at low frequencies. The QVCO forces the equation
(normal signal)**2 + (quadrature signal)**2 == 1 for the momentary frequency.
I'm not even sure if I have put that into words right, mathematically - but it works in practice, down to very low frequencies and thru zero, without the artefacts I got with using a second dome filter.
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject:
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Time for an Update on the Frequency Shifter project.
I finally found the time to draw schematics for the main board of the FS-1A (second board will follow), and I have also created a second version of the component overlay, which shows the reference designators instead of the component values.
A few people have adressed me about this: That printing component values makes soldering the board easier, but debugging more difficult.
And I learned the hard way that it also makes a description of adjustment procedures so much more difficult. (I've started adjustment descriptions on my FS-1A page, and had to use a lot of screenshots.)
So, my solution for this, and all future projects is this:
(1) Silkscreened on the board will be the component values, just as before. It makes it so much easier to put the right components on board for soldering them. And when the components are soldered in, most of these labels will not be visible anymore, anyway, as they are now beneath the components.
(2) In addition to this, I'll provide a PDF with the board layout, using reference designators. You print this on paper, and have it available when you're working on your board for adjustments or debugging.
See my updated FS-1A page for details:
http://www.jhaible.heim.at/fs1a/fs1a.html
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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sduck
Joined: Dec 16, 2007
Posts: 459
Location: Nashville
Audio files: 5
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject:
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Just saw your post on the motm list - and found this here. Sounds fantastic!
Sign me up for 2 sets of the board pairs.
Steve Drake |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject:
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I've just made a major update here:
http://www.jhaible.heim.at/fs1a/fs1a.html
I plan to release this after the Krautrock Phaser PCBs are all sent out.
Right now, I want to find out how many of you are still interested in the Frequency Shifter project, now that you see how complex it is.
It'll be my most difficult project so far. Take a look at the schematics, and if this doesn't frighten you away, please get back to me. (I certainly don't want to sell a lot of boards that will be thrown away unused or half-built, or built and not adjusted.)
Pricing will be like my previous PCBs, only that you need *two* PCBs for each frequency shifter; that's 54 EUR + shipping.
If you're still interested, please send me a mail - I want to find out if I'd get enough orders to get both of these PCBs made in quantities without committing commercial suicide. (It will take a couple of months before these boards will be ready for shipping, but I need pre-orders now.)
If still interested, please send me a mail in the following form (fill in the number or text in [] brackets):
=================================================================================
Email subjet line: "FS1A PCB order [n] sets of boards"
=================================================================================
Email text:
I'm ordering [n] sets of 2 PCBs for the JH FS-1A Frequency Shifter project for EUR 54.00 per set of boards,
plus EUR 8.00 for shipping and handling per order.
This is a binding pre-order that allows you to have a PCB manufacturing run done; OTOH it's possible that the whole project will be cancelled in case there will be not enough orders. (I won't have to pay anything in that case, of course.)
I know that this is a difficult project, and that I'm just buying the PCBs, and not a guarantee to build a working frequency shifter.
I have acess to an oscilloscope for the necessary adjustments.
My adress is:
[Full shipping adress, as it will appear on the envelope for sending you the PCBs]
My paypal adress is:
[your paypal adress]
========================================================================================
Looking forward to hear from you,
and don't forget the email subject line with the number of PCB *sets* (1 Set = 2 boards = EUR 54.00)
(no PM please. Mail to jhaible()debitel.net - replace () with the obvious.)
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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Clack
Joined: Aug 08, 2005
Posts: 438
Location: Walthamstow - london
Audio files: 5
G2 patch files: 1
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:38 pm Post subject:
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amazing - how do you do it! ( I mean produce so much work. ) I doubt anyone would ever throw one away. Ive been keeping my eye on this for some time and I definitely pre-ordering one.
Is this project quite power hungry?
anyway fantastic !!  great work
_________________
Clacktronics.co.uk |
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funkyfarm
Joined: Jan 21, 2007
Posts: 583
Location: France
Audio files: 3
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject:
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Yes ! which consumption ?
about 150mA for both boards ?
as it has psu circuitry onboard, can it share the same transformer as the Tau Pipe effect (2x18V, 30VA) ? |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject:
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| Mr Clack wrote: | | amazing - how do you do it! ( I mean produce so much work. ) |
At the moment, I just benefit from what I've built for myself over a span of many years. Transforming it into something I can actually sell is rather easy. I could certainly not develop a full blown frequency shifter in just a few months.
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject:
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| funkyfarm wrote: | Yes ! which consumption ?
about 150mA for both boards ? |
I haven't measured it yet. Right now, it's dismantled because I plan to put it into a proper 19" 2U enclosure.
But I can already tell you that you'll need heatsinks for the voltage regulators.
| Quote: | | as it has psu circuitry onboard, can it share the same transformer as the Tau Pipe effect (2x18V, 30VA) ? |
They cannot share a transformer, but you can use the same type of transformer. 30VA will certainly be enough.
If you want to share the power supply, you have to go for a proper stabilized +/-15V supply with big heatsink (like the MOTM power supply), and omit the on-board supplies.
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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