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thru-zero VCOs
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Randaleem



Joined: May 17, 2007
Posts: 456
Location: Northern CA, USA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nosferatu wrote:
Earlier in the thread some sugested that TZ of Bruce (Modcan) used the EN design, but this picture suggest something else perhaps?


Not necessarily. The ZO is made up of three primary boards, and when you study the published docs, the complexity is reduced to its parts.

Things are mentioned in the sales text like the addition/change to a 4 quadrant multiplier (where the basic VCA is in the EN 129 circuit). The core board, which has the trims for the core wavefom, is in the middle of this stack of three and cannot be seen in pics of assembled units. This info comes from the text of the "ZO testing procedure 2.2" document, which is labeled as Aug7, 2008! (so that time reversal switch on the ZO must really work! Very Happy ) FWIW, The bottom board handles the waveshaping circuitry. The top board is identified as the Modulation/power board.

Quote:

What an awful lot of components in his TZ!! No wonder its expensive!


How true!

Quote:

Perhaps he uses a variation of Don Tillmans TZ design? (it has four phases).


While I can't say for sure which circuit is used in the Cyndustiries ZO, I don't believe it is the Tillman design. Tillman's design is a truncated triangle core, which he calls a "trapezoid" core. The ZO operating manual by Mark Barton says on p.4 "The ZO uses a triangle core. All other waveforms are derived from that." Page two says "The apex of the triangle..." which does not suggest the Tillman trapezoid?

Finally, also on page 2 it is mentioned that you are trimming the "Low frequency symmetry..."(triangle). Perhaps this suggests the use of a doubled freq quad osc core, as this is one of the three principal means to quadrature oscillator design?

Regards,

Randal
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Nosferatu



Joined: Jul 27, 2007
Posts: 234
Location: Planet Rock.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

del
Last edited by Nosferatu on Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Randaleem



Joined: May 17, 2007
Posts: 456
Location: Northern CA, USA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nosferatu wrote:
>you study the published docs,
What docs? i cant find any?
I dont even find the sales tex? Where?
Well, it seams that you have access to all docs, some how?


Hi Nosferatu,

All that I mentioned is in the public record. I think they all came from here. http://www.cyndustries.com/modules_zero-osc.cfm

Basically I just searched online under "Zeroscillator" and have read everything I can find.

There is also a Cyndustries YahooGroup, with a "files" section that may prove fruitful. (I think everything I mentioned came from one or the other of these two locations.)

Randaleem wrote:

Tillman's design is a truncated triangle core, which he calls a "trapezoid" core.


Nosferatu wrote:

Hmm, you meant chopped tri shape?
I don't see any chopping of the waves in the schemo?


Look here: http://www.till.com/articles/QuadTrapVCO/discussion.html

Quote:

Well, you can go in the other direction with sub triangles
instead of frequency multiplying. You don't even need frequency multiplying or division, there are other means to get quadrature to.


Yes. Three basic choices: Cross coupled feedback, waveform slice-and-dice, and dual freq combination.

Kind regards,

Randal
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Nosferatu



Joined: Jul 27, 2007
Posts: 234
Location: Planet Rock.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

del
Last edited by Nosferatu on Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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andrewF



Joined: Dec 29, 2006
Posts: 1176
Location: australia
Audio files: 4

PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have started building Mr Tillman's quadVCO.
On the schematic, 2 state outputs come from the comparators, which are described as 2 'free square waves' for waveshaping...etc'

My 1st thought was just to unity-buffer (is that a verb?...it is now) them and have some squarewave outputs.
but i know the benefits of asking first, anybody got some other ideas??
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andrewF



Joined: Dec 29, 2006
Posts: 1176
Location: australia
Audio files: 4

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

this is one of those modules that makes you walk in circles whilst pointing upwards.
i found it a bit hard to build due to unfamiliar chips, unusual resistor values and 6 different voltages required (+/-15, +/-8, +/-5) but it works and it works very well...very different sound and response to inputs compared to the EN thru zero VCO.
You can see in the 'scope shots some jitter/noise on the waves. Mr Tillman states you should be careful with routing connections and he is quite correct. I found rerouting some wires greatly reduced noise, but more to do.
Haven't done anything with the surplus square waves yet, thought I'd just get it to work 1st.
Thanks D.Tillman for sharing such a great circuit.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

There are trimmers to set up the waveshapes, but i won't bother with doing that until this is installed in my modular - need to stop soldering and start panel-building.
with LFO input,
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
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v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8932
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cool Groovy! Very Happy

But what does it sound like Question Question

_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
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andrewF



Joined: Dec 29, 2006
Posts: 1176
Location: australia
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

not set up for handling audio on my pooter so its a wma file
30s of noise - using the SN-Voice to drive the tillman QVCO.
no filtering or fx, QVCO output direct into audio Cd burner.


tillvco.wma
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Download (listen)
 Filename:  tillvco.wma
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janvanvolt



Joined: Nov 24, 2005
Posts: 285
Location: Mainz, Germany

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Randaleem wrote:
At least not the EN-based TZVCO PCB that I've been working on. You can expect it to be offered and available in September.


Hi,

any news on the TZVCO ? I am really interested in one pcb, maybe two ...
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Peake



Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

andrewF wrote:
not set up for handling audio on my pooter so its a wma file
30s of noise - using the SN-Voice to drive the tillman QVCO.
no filtering or fx, QVCO output direct into audio Cd burner.


Thanks for the audio (and congrats on building it!).

Lovely chaotic/turbulent tone at 15 seconds!
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Randaleem



Joined: May 17, 2007
Posts: 456
Location: Northern CA, USA

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

unit-sound wrote:
Randaleem wrote:
the EN-based TZVCO PCB that I've been working on. You can expect it to be offered and available in September.
Hi,any news on the TZVCO ? I am really interested in one pcb, maybe two ...


Hi Unit-sound,

Still hope to have it out by months end, as in the post you quoted. I'm working on a LOT of modules right now!

Kind regards,

Randal
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janvanvolt



Joined: Nov 24, 2005
Posts: 285
Location: Mainz, Germany

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Same here, working on ~ 16 projects depending on parts availability and my order temper.

currently i am working part time on the klee design frontpanel.
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Funky40



Joined: Sep 24, 2005
Posts: 875
Location: Swiss
Audio files: 1
G2 patch files: 5

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Randaleem wrote:
unit-sound wrote:
Randaleem wrote:
the EN-based TZVCO PCB that I've been working on. You can expect it to be offered and available in September.
Hi,any news on the TZVCO ? I am really interested in one pcb, maybe two ...


Hi Unit-sound,

Still hope to have it out by months end, as in the post you quoted. I'm working on a LOT of modules right now!

Kind regards,

Randal


Please don't hurry with the TZO.
Put please the weight onto the Quality and not to the release date.
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softfin



Joined: Oct 11, 2006
Posts: 271
Location: Far in the north
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Randaleem: I'd be in for 4 TZVCO boards.
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synthnut



Joined: Aug 15, 2007
Posts: 9
Location: San Jose California

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi, You can put me down for 4 TZVCO boards also!
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prophei



Joined: Jan 27, 2007
Posts: 234
Location: san francisco, ca
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i would like a minimum of 2 boards, maybe 4 =]
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mono-poly



Joined: Jul 07, 2004
Posts: 937
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

4!
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Peake



Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Loss Angeles
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

4! Perhaps 6, to try the Yammy FM algos in analog.
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frijitz



Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 1734
Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peake wrote:
4! Perhaps 6, to try the Yammy FM algos in analog.


Do you think the design is stable and accurate enough for that? scratch

Very Happy

Ian
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janvanvolt



Joined: Nov 24, 2005
Posts: 285
Location: Mainz, Germany

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Okay, count me in for 2 additional (so that makes a total of 4)
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Peake



Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 1113
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:
Peake wrote:
4! Perhaps 6, to try the Yammy FM algos in analog.


Do you think the design is stable and accurate enough for that? scratch

Very Happy

Ian


I'm fully willing to run those risks and find out what happens Smile
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frijitz



Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 1734
Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peake wrote:
I'm fully willing to run those risks and find out what happens Smile

Well, I'm sure you will get some really cool sounds no matter what. We'll all be looking forward to your results Exclamation

Very Happy

Ian
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Peake



Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:
Well, I'm sure you will get some really cool sounds no matter what. We'll all be looking forward to your results Exclamation

Very Happy

Ian


I find "FM" compelling. I'm sure the manuals, better handwriting, and better graphics are online, but this is just to tweak your interest:

http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y222/mpeake/?action=view&current=SY99FMAlgos1b.jpg

http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y222/mpeake/?action=view&current=SY99FMAlgos2b.jpg
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RF



Joined: Mar 23, 2007
Posts: 1502
Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Jeeze -
I wish if I understood anything Shocked from those links, Peake.
I must have skipped class the day we covered that....

bruce
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blue hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 24499
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here is a tidied up version : http://www.adp-gmbh.ch/csound/dx7/algorithms.html

Hey this is an art form Laughing : http://vektor.ca/audio/gear/dx7/algorithms.html

This one has the dx 7 manual, that may be more useful : http://www.chipple.net/dx7/

_________________
Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
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