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RF
Joined: Mar 23, 2007
Posts: 1502
Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
Audio files: 28
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 Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:32 am Post subject:
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Thanx Jan -
That DX-7 manual link helped quite a lot.
bruce |
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Randaleem
Joined: May 17, 2007
Posts: 456
Location: Northern CA, USA
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:30 am Post subject:
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 I hereby rename my drawings "Algos drawn by monkeys". It should become an internet legend..
Thanks for the links. That was my hope. Very interesting stuff! |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 24539
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 299
G2 patch files: 320
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:01 pm Post subject:
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| Peake wrote: | | It should become an internet legend. |
Good plan, who knows, electro-music articles sometimes score pretty good on google. So here it goes : dx7 algorithm blah blah dx7 blah blah algorithms blah dx7, algorithms that blah ""dx7 algorithms" ... well that's about all the help I can offer 
_________________
Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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mono-poly
Joined: Jul 07, 2004
Posts: 937
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Audio files: 2
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:12 pm Post subject:
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| dx seven zeven sept sieben επτά sette sete siete |
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Luka
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 1003
Location: Melb.
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Nosferatu
Joined: Jul 27, 2007
Posts: 234
Location: Planet Rock.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject:
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del
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Loss Angeles
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:49 pm Post subject:
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Whoa, these are 7 PCB kits? Perhaps I won't order six after all!  |
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fluxmonkey
Joined: Jun 24, 2005
Posts: 708
Location: cleve
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject:
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| Peake wrote: | | Whoa, these are 7 PCB kits? Perhaps I won't order six after all! |
that's a pic of the guts of a cyndustries zero-oscillator, not the em kit being discussed...
b |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Loss Angeles
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:09 pm Post subject:
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Wow... Thanks.
"Your Majesty, what did you think of my Oscillator?"
(Salieri whispers into the King's ear)
"Too many parts."
Mozart, stricken: "But I assure you, there are exactly the right number of parts!" |
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Randaleem
Joined: May 17, 2007
Posts: 456
Location: Northern CA, USA
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Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:30 pm Post subject:
Subject description: EN129 TZO What to leave in? What to leave out? |
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| Peake wrote: | "Your Majesty, what did you think of my Oscillator?"
(Salieri whispers into the King's ear)
"Too many parts."
Mozart, stricken: "But I assure you, there are exactly the right number of parts!" |
Hi Peake,
Aye, that's the rub isn't it!
How many parts? What to leave in, what to leave out?
I am pretty certain the ZO core is indeed based on the EN129 circuit. As I work to solve the question posed; I find myself RE-"discovering" the path that I think "they" took. I can now see from the EN129 nearly all the way to the ZO. (If anyone has ideas about the tri to sine to square morph circuit; I'm all ears!)
But it's time to whittle the myriad possibilities into a module. And FWIW, it won't be a ZO at this point. I've tried to put pads into the PCB for the connections that will allow additional boards to interface and move that direction in the future. And I will pursue this over time.
But for now, I'd like to get the basic TZO PCB's into your hands.
I've taken to calling this one the TEEZ-io; because it teases towards the ZO. (FWIW, I'm working on three different TZ VCO designs. This is the first one I started, and will be the first released. As Andrew mentioned, these circuits do have their differences; so I believe each will be valuable in its own way.)
But I need your input on "what to leave in, what to leave out" of this TZO. So here's a prelim layout in Frac/Euro of one possible set of controls and IO. (The blue circles are jacks, the large black ones are pots. The small labeled holes are toggle switches.)
As presented, this is a fairly straight version of the EN129 circuit. It's pretty much as much as I can fit on this size panel without turning it into a jack minefield.
First question: How important is maintaining a small-ish panel/board size? It seems many have plans to use these in sets of 4 or more, so does size matter?  The cost of populating more extensive board sets also comes into play?
2nd question: Would you rather have more ZO type controls, instead of the varied waveforms? Perhaps you get basic TZ on one board for 18USD, and add the waveshaper features with a 2nd, and maybe even a 3rd board to get into ZO territory?
3rd question: How deep can this module be and still fit into your systems?
Because there are already 12 IC's on the board... (You can see that there are actually 3 boards shown; the main one with the 4 pots, a "jacks" and a "freq/fine" board. Right now these latter two are basically eliminating some flying wires, but they could become more populated with circuitry to take the "load" off the main board, and also reduce module depth at the same time.)
I do realise that not everyone is using Frac/Euro. But I hope to make this available as a completed module at some point, so the size and buildability does matter to me.
Because as crowded as this panel already is, there are things on the board which could come out to a panel. Like AC/DC FM inputs. Reversal CV input "switch". LFO/VCO range switch. LEDs.
A 4th question: Would you trade panel complexity/spacing to get more IO? IOW, the waveform jacks of this layout "could" be closer spaced, which would make room for more of them. (A triple VCO I'm working on takes this approach to stay in a double wide Frac/16hp Euro size.)
Perhaps more interesting is what could be done if the panel size were allowed to increase which then would remove restriction on IO, and then it would? make more sense to add the balmod (instead of the 2 quadrant VCA) and such which are in the ZO. Then perhaps it'd be worthwhile to have a Summed Linear node ouput, as on the ZO. Add Variable sync. Reversal input jack. The ZO bias switch. Attenuators/Inverters on inputs. Quadrature outs.
What to leave in? What to leave out?
So please let me know what's important to you in this TZO module?
Kind regards,
Randal
NOTE: Init-Lin. and Mod-Depth labels are shown backwards!)
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:24 pm Post subject:
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I've no problem with modules the size of the Bode FS (and larger) if they give me what I want, and avoid being cramped.
I can't speak to analog TZ FM, but on the Yammies, you started with a sine wave, or close variations thereof, and used multiple oscillators to create new waveforms (two oscillators with feedback could create variable pulse waves with PWM via LFO, and sawtooth waves which could overfuzz with feedback, for example, making algo 42 especially useful for analog simulation).
But I'm not sure what TZ saw wave modulation would sound like. (Saw to saw, not the creation of a saw via two sine waves.) Might be interesting, where in Yamaha land, it would just be uncontrollable noise.
Would you use Molex or socketry for board-to-board connections, if there are multiples and especially later releases adding features, to ease installation (avoid the CS-80 effect)?
Thanks for taking this on. (Oh, and yes, AC/DC FM switching please.) Soft and hard synch? |
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Funky40
Joined: Sep 24, 2005
Posts: 875
Location: Swiss
Audio files: 1
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:09 am Post subject:
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@Randal
I'm a little bit confused about your post ( also doe to my not so good english )
Is this now a Thru Zero VCO or not ?
about space:
while tourning one knob, one can alter another when they are to close.
Thats not what i would like to have on a ZO. ( or any other VCO )
My Opinion: give them some space !
Sockets can be close.
a modular modul: (?)
The Zero, i'd like to have NOt in a cutted-down version.
but to have the electronics in several function blocks which are added to a base Modul might be useful,
if one has to debugg the Modul.
so you can start with the minimal configuration and working functionblock per functionblock upwards.
But i really like to get those Boards at the same time, and as ONE Modul !
( not only doe of shipping costs ) |
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Randaleem
Joined: May 17, 2007
Posts: 456
Location: Northern CA, USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:42 pm Post subject:
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Hi Peake,
Thank you for taking the time to reply!
| Peake wrote: | | I've no problem with modules the size of the Bode FS (and larger) if they give me what I want, and avoid being cramped. |
Makes sense. I think the "if they give me what I want" part factors in pretty heavily? To wit, the EN129 is a full-featured VCO which happens to allow TZ operation. Compare this to a "Yammie osc" in analog that might only have a sine output and means for hooking up in the various algo's arrangements. Pretty different goals between the two, I think. Really big difference in panels and circuit too.
My post is an attempt to see where the users of this module stand along the "line" of features described, from austere (Yammie like) to complete (ZO?).
| Quote: | | But I'm not sure what TZ saw wave modulation would sound like. Might be interesting, where in Yamaha land, it would just be uncontrollable noise. |
True. Again, with such a wide ranging topic as electronic music, sounds, noize; it's hard to say what one person might find compelling. (Which is why the first pass layout presented is tilted towards the complete vco with TZ end of the spectrum.) Looking to open up a feedback channel!
| Quote: | | Would you use Molex or socketry for board-to-board connections, if there are multiples and especially later releases adding features, to ease installation (avoid the CS-80 effect)? |
LOL! That thing is a BEAST! A beast I wouldn't mind having, BTW.
Yes, I provide MTA (.100) connections for all panel mounted items, and will use headers to go between boards. Pots can be board mounted or not, simply use the provided holes to put in an MTA header instead.
| Quote: | | Thanks for taking this on. (Oh, and yes, AC/DC FM switching please.) Soft and hard synch? |
Thank you for your replies. It's much harder to make a PCB for general use than to simply fulfill MY desires only. So I appreciate the feedback!
Hoping to hear from Frac users as that format panel increases in 1.5" increments; where Euro can simply add .2" as necessary. Makes Frac (for me at least) the hardest format to design for.
Got it on the AC/DC. Sync could be variable from hard to soft as in the ZO?
Kind regards,
Randal |
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Nosferatu
Joined: Jul 27, 2007
Posts: 234
Location: Planet Rock.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject:
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del
Last edited by Nosferatu on Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:38 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Randaleem
Joined: May 17, 2007
Posts: 456
Location: Northern CA, USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject:
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| Funky40 wrote: | | Im a little bit confused about your post ( also doe to my not so good english ) |
Hi Funky40! I'm quite sure your English is MUCH better than any attempt of mine in your language!
| Quote: | | Is this now a Thru Zero VCO or not ? |
Yes, it is a TZ VCO.
| Quote: | | about space:while tourning one knob, one can alter another when they are to close. Thats not what i would like to have on a ZO. ( or any other VCO ) My Opinion: give them some space ! Sockets can be close. |
Do you mean more space between pots than shown here? This is typical Euro/ Doepfer /Blacet type spacing.
| Quote: | | a modular modul:(?) |
Well, I suppose it could end up a bit like that. But not too much.
| Quote: | | The Zero, i'd like to have NOt in a cutted-down version. but to have the electronics in several function blocks which are added to a base Modul might be useful, if one has to debugg the Modul. so you can start with the minimal configuration and working functionblock per functionblock upwards. But i really like to get those Boards at the same time, and as ONE Modul ! ( not only doe of shipping costs ) |
Thank you for the comments. Every reply helps.
Randal |
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Randaleem
Joined: May 17, 2007
Posts: 456
Location: Northern CA, USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:01 pm Post subject:
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Hi Nosferatu,
| Nosferatu wrote: | Your going to have a devilish time to tune unless using multi turns for the Coarse pot! HEHE!  |
According to the ZO test procedure v2.2 there are multi turn pots for both the triangle symmetry and the V/octave setting. The two at the top of your pic would seem to be the ring mod null trims (based on the testing doc). The only two trims mentioned on the bottom board are the sawtooth symmetry and the quadrature trim. From the description, its probably the quad trim we're seeing in your pic. The description in each case (for the ones you've shown here) does not sound like something requiring a multi turn pot.
| Quote: | Sine to square are dead simple you just sa....e the xxxx!  |
Sure, sine to square is pretty basic. And the fact that they also "allow" the square wave to attenuate is I think a clue to the technique used. Still, there are many fabulous minds here who know far more than me; so it makes sense to me to ask? The variable triangle to sine, and on to this attenuated square is something that I don't fully have a handle on. (As I said, I'm all ears if someone wants to share their ideas about it.) As I think about it more; it seems less mysterious though. I need to try some things out.
| Quote: | | Anyhow, just look at this picture, and how much companion text are swarming the boards! |
That text is IMO probably pretty useful to the assemblers and during any troubleshoooting.
| Quote: | Also I was not impressed by the tuning and calibration manuals, what a mess of things to do and very difficult to understand. Not a merit.
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I agree that it is written in a bit of a strange fashion. But it doesn't seem overly complex to me. Just presented that way perhaps. It's pretty easy to stand back afterwards and critique. I think they've done a pretty decent job. Not that I'd do it the same way; but I can certainly appreciate and respect the work they've done to bring the ZO from the EN129 to where it is!
| Quote: | Remember that Randalem while your designing as few trimmers as possible, trimmers just confuse and upsets the end user.  |
Thank you for the comments. I don't think anyone wants more trims than are needed! OTOH, It seems the ZO has only six presets/trimmers total. That's pretty good for all that is involved in a ZO, IMO. And each seems necessary to me.
The EN129 by itself has five: v/oct, Hi freq v/oct, saw trim, sine trin, VCA dc trim.
Thank you again for the reply,
Randal |
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Funky40
Joined: Sep 24, 2005
Posts: 875
Location: Swiss
Audio files: 1
G2 patch files: 5
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| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:11 am Post subject:
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| Randaleem wrote: | | Do you mean more space between pots than shown here? This is typical Euro/ Doepfer /Blacet type spacing. |
Yes, in your example the Pots are extremly close.
I know, this situation is difficult.
Many People seems to give to much for the optics and forget the functionality about,
or cannot imagine the influence to the functionality.
Ask yourself:
what counts more on a TZO VCO,
the matching optics or the function ?
and as i sayed:
when tourning one knob, one can alter another .
I really recommend to give the Knobs some space .
And i would give it also a multiturn with big knob ( i do this for all my VCOs, but the multiturn is on the finetune pot )
but as this module is anyway for DIYers, that Frontpanel thing seems not really the main Problem.
Maybe just wait with the Panel and look what modules first builders are doin.
btw.: i thought about.
That "Yammi Osc" Idea is good.
I'm one of those who like to have that 6 operator FM in analog.
But the Answer is open if it will work satisfaying |
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Nosferatu
Joined: Jul 27, 2007
Posts: 234
Location: Planet Rock.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:42 am Post subject:
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del
Last edited by Nosferatu on Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:39 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Nosferatu
Joined: Jul 27, 2007
Posts: 234
Location: Planet Rock.
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Funky40
Joined: Sep 24, 2005
Posts: 875
Location: Swiss
Audio files: 1
G2 patch files: 5
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| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:15 pm Post subject:
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it's a good chance that this are the Switchcraft ( mouser number) 502-142AX
A collegue is getting samples from those. ( i have not seen them still now )
In my opinion, the Switchcrafts are the very best minijacks.
The 142AX is expensive: 2,67$ when taking 100
I can't see something on the Kobiconn Datasheet which would match.
and the Hex dress nut is typical for the switchcrafts.( but you get them also on some Kobiconns ) |
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Dave Kendall
Joined: May 26, 2007
Posts: 421
Location: England
Audio files: 3
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:19 am Post subject:
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| Quote: | | What to leave in? What to leave out? |
I'd vote for a basic module with simple waveshaping, possibly with pcb interconnects for other bits and bobs if desired.
I'd certainly probably want to put 2 or 3 of them behind one panel for "DX in a modular" type fun.
Is there any mileage in having 2 or 3 TZVCOs on one board? - earlier in this thread someone mentioned that the relative tuning stability of the carrier and modulator could possibly produce undesirable sidebands if one drifts away from the other. I could be barking up the wrong tree here, but possibly oscillators sharing a tranny array IC might help with this?.....
I don't know how possible a "ratio selector" for the oscillator would be - I seem to remember reading somewhere why Yamaha chose the specific oscillator ratios they did - wish I could remember where....
cheers,
Dave |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:07 am Post subject:
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This definitely calls for closer inspection of Chowning's work.
I don't know if these oscillators will be "stable" enough for this to be of benefit, but the Yamaha partials had a "reset" setting to cause the phase of the selected partial to restart from the same position upon each keystroke. This allowed for the choice between very predictable, hard sounds and more analog free-running sounds. Interesting when you mixed partials with reset on and off in a single sound.
Again, I don't know if enough detuning can be avoided for this to matter. |
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Randaleem
Joined: May 17, 2007
Posts: 456
Location: Northern CA, USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:27 am Post subject:
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Hi Dave,
Thank you for answering my questions! Without input, I'm aiming at a target with a blindfold on...
| Dave Kendall wrote: | | I'd vote for a basic module with simple waveshaping, possibly with pcb interconnects for other bits and bobs if desired. |
I'm leaning this direction myself at this point. More of a VCO with TZ capability for this first pass. A second add-on board will get us near the ZO.
| Quote: | | Is there any mileage in having 2 or 3 TZVCOs on one board? - earlier in this thread someone mentioned that the relative tuning stability of the carrier and modulator could possibly produce undesirable sidebands if one drifts away from the other. I could be barking up the wrong tree here, but possibly oscillators sharing a tranny array IC might help with this?..... |
Well, it'd be a BIG board! It's not something I'd want to do with the fully- clothed TZO, but seems worth looking at for a subsequent yammie multi sine-oscs-only version?
| Quote: | | I don't know how possible a "ratio selector" for the oscillator would be - I seem to remember reading somewhere why Yamaha chose the specific oscillator ratios they did - wish I could remember where.... |
That'd be interesting reading. If you remember or come across it; please let us know!
Quick question for anyone reading this thread: Could someone send me page 4 of the EN75? (March 77, part of the vco options) I'd appreciate seeing it to confirm what I suspect it shows. Thank you.
Kind regards,
Randal |
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Nosferatu
Joined: Jul 27, 2007
Posts: 234
Location: Planet Rock.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject:
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del
Last edited by Nosferatu on Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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