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WSG Thank you!
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tronato wrote:
The unwanted low frequency is generated or is present on pin 6 of the 741 op amp... but that is evident because it's the output...


does it get louder or softer as you touch the 741 or stuff around it?

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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello!
Slightly higher if I touch pin 2.
All the controls do something and I like what they do but this low frequency tone/noise ruins everything.
Both voices act the same (with slight differences)
I'm trying to compare the printed circuit board to the schematic posted on Ray's MFOS website but I find it sort of complicated... has anybody checked it?
Can it be possible that I'm the first one to build this new version of the WSG?
By the way, how much power hungry is this circuit? How long does the 9 volt battery last?


TRO
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Pehr



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Have you tried replacing the 741?

If that does not work; concentrate on the circuit parts around it and double and triple check all values. Check for shorts or broken traces.

Or could the noise be the resonance? turn the reso pot all the way down and measure again.

Good luck! Very Happy

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Tronato



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello!
I'll replace it tomorrow although I believe the 741 only has to do with the filter which is working ok in my opinion but nevertheless I'll do that or whatever it takes to stop this new nightmare I have now!

Thanks


TRO
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello!
Happy Sunday!
I replaced the 741 but nothing has changed...
I'm so confused!

TRO
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Coriolis



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi!
Sometimes, when I'm really stuck for a solution on a circuit, I re-heat all the solder joints on the board. At least, that eliminates the possibility of a cold/bad solder joint.

Also, knowing that some solder bridges are so fine they're invisible to the eye, I like to take an exacto knife (or similar sharp knife) and scrape or cut between solder pads that are close enough for a bridge to be a possibility.
The pads for the chips on your board are pretty close together for instance. I would certainly scrape or cut between those.

But go easy - it doesn't have to be hard. A light touch will do.

C
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello!
Thank you for your answer Corolis...
I re-touched the solder joints yesterday and nothing has changed.
I know something is wrong because I can't hear this low frequency on the samples posted on Ray's MFOS WSG web page.
Uncle Krunkus told me not to de-solder the front panel connections but leaving it as it is I'm getting nowhere.
When I went to Radio Shack this morning for the 741 IC I also bought some de-soldering braid so I think I might as well start de-soldering this thing...
You see, now I am obsessed with making it work. Maybe there's a faulty resistor (unusual) or capacitor... who knows... maybe something is wrong in the PC Board layout...
If I had known that I was going to be one of the first to assemble (or at least try to assemble) this new version of the WSG circuit board I would have certainly have waited to see the reaction of others... my bad luck!
I'm considering breadbording part of this circuit but Radio Shack doesn't have the CD40106 I.C. (and I don't want to buy 50 on eBay!)
My girlfriend told me to throw it away... she says that that way I won't feel so miserable about it anymore... she might be right... but then it's been 3 weeks thinking about the project!
Thanks all for your help!

PS: Since I live very close to the sea, we might be in the presence of the first UNDERWATER/SUBMARINE WSG! (LOL)

TRO
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RF



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Uh-oh Tronato,

It sounds like frustration is kicking in.
Put the soldering iron down and step away from the circuit board.
Go take your GF to a movie, walk on the beach and do something other than stare at the board. In a few days you'll feel much better about the thing and have a fresh perspective.

While you are away from the board - maybe do a few Google searches on Troubleshooting Analog Circuits. Do a little reading on the logical process.

I would not be concerned about the circuit board. I'm certain many of these have been built from the new layout, and Ray wouldn't release a board if it didn't work.

I agree with Krunkus - Don't unsolder your panel - To what purpose would you do that? You have said the pots work. The problem isn't likely there, and if you take those off - you can't test the thing. Just double check your wiring.

Follow Coriolis' advice on checking for solder bridges. I've been bit like that more than once.

Did you socket your IC's? If so, swap out the IC's for new ones. IC's are sometimes bad, and sometimes clumsy soldering makes them bad.

Really - I'm (we're) pulling for you - but unless you can round up a tech to come around and help you it's up to you to do the troubleshooting.
We can offer some guidance based on our own experiences, but we can't do it for you.

You can make this work.

Bruce
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Exclamation http://www.musicfromouterspace.com/analogsynth/troubleshoot.html Exclamation
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fluxmonkey



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tronato wrote:
...I know something is wrong because I can't hear this low frequency on the samples posted on Ray's MFOS WSG web page.
Uncle Krunkus told me not to de-solder the front panel connections but...


t

altho it's possible you have a problem, i wouldn't necessarily assume that something is "wrong" just because it doesn't reproduce those sounds. the weird sound generator is just that... it's not a synth, it makes bugsound. heck, i can't always get mine to make the same sound twice... from the same box! variations between WSGs is the norm, and part of their charm.

similar to what bruce said: put your soldering iron down, and step away from... your expectations. is it generating sounds? are they weird sounds? if so, perhaps you have successfully built a Weird Sound Generator! relax and enjoy.

one of the real pleasures about projects like these (or, say, circuit bending) is the pleasure of the unexepected. not to say that i haven't f'd up my share of projects... but sometimes the mistakes have been more interesting than th successes.

bbob
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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very true Bbob. Cool
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello!
Here are some pics... after unsoldering the front panel... (sigh!)...
I have some doubts regarding C1, C9 and C10 (0.1uF) because when I bought the same capacitor at Radio shack in order to build Ray's signal tracer I realized they were totally different and the capacitors supplied by Ray have so small letters on them I can hardly read them... I think it is on one side "620 FM" and "104 ESM" on the other side. However they are way smaller than the ones I bought at Radio Shack. The ones bought at Radio Shack look just like C2, C3, C4... well you get the idea!
Have a good one! (I'm not)

TRO


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Last edited by Tronato on Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:23 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, looking at it compared to the parts layout on Ray's site, I can't see any problem at all. That probably means that the "fault" is in the way you wired the controls. I would suggest wiring up the power and output and have a listen, then start adding the other controls starting with the filter section, and working back towards the oscillators. Listen after every change and see if the unwanted hum turns up. You won't hurt the chips with the controls disconnected, if you did, they're cheap anyway. Hell, we gotta get to the bottom of this hey? It might sound pretty "wrong" until you have the filter controls on, but everything else is just variations on schmitt trigger astables, so they should just be quiet until you get there.
Good luck.

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RF



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Krunkus - That looks like a good plan...
(although I'm still partial to stepping back for a few days)
Although this might not be the likely the cause of the issue, looking at the pics, I wonder about some of the solder joints....
They may be plated-through holes, but I'd still like to see good flow of the solder to the topside of the hole. There are several I'd reheat and get to flow through.

Bruce
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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, possibly, but I think the soldering looks pretty good overall. Ray would get plated through holes, he's pretty thorough like that. Re-heat some of the duller ones if you like Tronato, it couldn't hurt. (Well, it could, if you hold the iron there too long, but you'd know that by now. Smile )
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Uncle Krunkus wrote:
[...]I think the soldering looks pretty good overall.


For a first project exceptionally good even Very Happy I've seen fresh people coming into the workshop here doing worse, and those are supposed to have some experience.

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:33 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello all!
As you know I desoldered the Front Panel.
In order to connect it again I 'm finding it very hard if not impossible to clean the holes so I can insert the cables again probably because the board is very high quality and the cables/components get soldered on both sides of the board.
I've tried with copper desoldering braid and a vaccum desoldering tool but the solder isn't being completely removed...
I should have followed the initial advice of not desoldering !
Any suggestions? I don't want to ruin the board...
Thanks!

TRO
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Apply extra tin, then use the desoldering tool - that's what usually works. If it doesn't, make tin fluid and hit board against the table to make it fly out (better be quick) - but be sure to check the board afterwards for tin then as it could be everywhere after the hit Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I always use the desoldering sucker for that, you still need to practice a good timing. A little extra solder will stop it from solidifying too fast. Liquify-iron away-over the hole-suck. (Man, what a classic quote that's gonna make!! Laughing ) If you're too fast, you won't position the sucker properly, if you're too slow, well, it all goes cold. It needs practice. Make sure the board is firmly held in a vice etc. so you have both hands free.

The other option is to heat the solder and push the wire through while it's hot. Finnish by adding a little fresh solder as you normally would.

The good thing is that these are connector pads, so you won't come anywhere near over heating any components, which on this project aren't expensive anyway. It's all good learning experience.

And,...... Relax.

You're an alchemist, not a soldier.

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Tronato



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:35 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello again all!
Following your advice, I left the WSG alone for a few days... hence my not posting anymore. I am ready to connect the front panel again. This doesn't mean I didn't thing about it... and started to wonder if the samples that Ray posted on the WSG web page were recorded with the single voice version of the WSG because these samples are too clean and are nice to listen to.
So I would like to try to build first the single voice version and test it. By looking at the schematic I have arrived to the conclusion that if I don't wire the "Weird Frequency" potentiometer of either Voice A or Voice B then that voice will be silent and not send anything to the "Oddness Filter".
Could any of you take a look at the schematic and confirm my theory?
For Voice A it would be R9 and for Voice B it would be R25.

Thanks again!

TRO

Last edited by Tronato on Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tronato wrote:
and started to wonder if the samples that Ray posted on the WSG web page were recorded with the single voice version of the WSG because these samples are too clean and are nice to listen to.


I'm afraid it's not... in this sample, you can clearly hear that there are two wacky oscillators (one high pitch bleep with high wacky rate and another with low pitch bloop with a lower wacky rate). Confused

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Tronato



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for your answer Pehr!

In any case I still want to test each voice separately to try to determine which voice is the troublemaker. Is my idea wrong? At least that way I can start discarding WSG sections and if for example the noise is on both, then I would investigate the filter... ???
Thanks!

TRO
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That seems like a good plan. IT should be quite easy to hear if the the voices makes nice and clean square waves (or triangle for Zany), or just noise.

However, I would start at the output and work backwards...

Just a thought: Have you connected all ground cables as described in the panel wiring diagram? If there isn't any ground in the ring of the output for examlpe, it could make a nasty humming noise when connected to a mixer or amp... I think... Confused

Another thought:
Is the minus on the battery connected to ground? (it should be)

Cheers Smile

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Tronato



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:19 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello again:

The answer to both of your questions is yes. All the pots and switches are mounted on an aluminum plate.

First of all, would my not connecting for example one of the terminals of pot R25 (Weird Frequency) isolate Voice B from the filter and output?

How would you start from the output backwards? I can't see how the filter would make the noise without having any input, but then the name of the on/off switch says it all: anything is possible in the Twilight Zone! (LOL)

Please take a fast look at the schematic on the WSG homepage and confirm if yes or no...

Thanks!

TRO
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tronato wrote:
First of all, would my not connecting for example one of the terminals of pot R25 (Weird Frequency) isolate Voice B from the filter and output?


No, you could temporarily remove R22 and be sure to have S4 opened, that would isolate it. To remove a resistor temporarily I'd cut one of it's wires to resolder it later - but you could of course try to get it out on one side.

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