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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » MusicFromOuterSpace.com designs by Ray Wilson
WSG Thank you!
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adhdboy



Joined: Feb 16, 2005
Posts: 57
Location: denver

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:29 pm    Post subject:  Sounds like you have something wired incorrectly to me
Subject description: Possible Wiring Error
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Alfredo

I suggest you review all of the wiring of the unit. Either you have shorted one of the oscillator outputs to something or you have wired one of the oscillator outputs directly to the output of the unit thus bypassing everything and making the loud square wave oscillation I hear in the mpeg you sent.

I along with many people have successfully built the WSG and many people have written to share their thanks, pictures and cool sounds.

The samples on my site illustrate what you should be hearing when you wire everything correctly. As with everything on my site I built my WSG directly from the information I posted and it works fine (thus the samples sound pretty cool).

As much as I and many contributors to this forum would like to help you we all know that with any piece of electronic equipment there are a million ways to wire something incorrectly and so we can only make suggestions.

You have to look over the circuit thoroughly and find the problem. If you follow the info on the MFOS web site, check every wire and every connection to the board and if you make sure every part is of the correct value the WSG will definitely work and it will sound similar to the posted samples.

Since you purchased a kit you definitely have all of the correct parts but again I suggest that something is amiss with the wiring and perhaps you switched a resistor or two.

Here are some questions to consider...

1) Does the frequency change with adjustment of any of the Wacky Freq, Zany Freq, or Weird Freq pots... If so then I bet that the output of that particular oscillator is shorted to something it shouldn't be shorted too.

2) If the frequency does not change with any of those pots then again something is not connected properly because all 6 of the inverters in the CD40106 are used as oscillators in the WSG and one of those pots should be changing the frequency of that square wave.

3) Did you follow the wiring exactly as shown or did you change something?

4) Short these pins to ground one at a time. When the oscillation stops you have found the culprit.

U1-3 - Voice 1 wacky oscillator is connected to the output somehow.
U1-5 - Voice 1 weird oscillator is connected to the output somehow.
U1-1 - Voice 1 zany oscillator is connected to the output somehow.
U1-11 - Voice 2 wacky oscillator is connected to the output somehow.
U1-13 - Voice 2 weird oscillator is connected to the output somehow.
U1-9 - Voice 2 zany oscillator is connected to the output somehow.

If the spurious oscillation did not stop at some point when you were shorting these pins to ground one at a time then I'm stumped since they are the only oscillators in the unit.

Please let us know when you find the problem and fix it.

Thanks

Ray

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Tronato



Joined: Sep 21, 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello all!

Thank you so very much Adhdboy for your most helpful answer...

Following your instructions I have found out that shorting pin 13 to ground stops the noise, so (at least for me) that's a small step for a man, a giant leap for mankind!

So now we know that the alien is hiding in the Voice B (or 2) Weird Oscillator.

So, where do we go from here? Could it be transistor Q2? I'll check the wiring again (I've done it 3 times so far) and the value of the components (although I wrote down a list of every component and check marked them as they were installed, a practice I highly recommend to everybody when building an electronic kit or before taking off a 747 Jumbo Jet if you are the pilot).

Now that we know where the problem is any suggestion will be greatly appreciated.

More news tomorrow after the autopsy...

Again, thank you very much Adhdboy for the advice.

TRO
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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Okay, well, based on that info, I'd be looking at: -
1) The way R25 is wired (try substituting one of the other 1Meg pots too)
2) Check the values of R24, R27, R30 & R34. The difference between a 4.7K and a 47K is the difference between a red band and an orange band.(I just checked your pic and these look fine)
3) Check the trace which comes off R22. It goes almost right around the board carrying the signal from voice B to the filter section. It goes topside for about 3mm (for no apparent reason Confused ) make sure this whole trace is sound, and not shorted to anything else. Your photo seems to show it almost being touched by one of the pads for R28.

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adhdboy



Joined: Feb 16, 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK, if grounding pin 13 stops the noise the next question to consider is this:

Does adjusting R25 change the frequency of the loud oscillation you hear?
If it doesn't then re-check where WD1B and WD2B are going. If the connections of WD1B and WD2B are correct is the wiper of R25 connected to one end of the pot as shown in the schem and the panel drawing? If it isn't the frequency won't change with adjustment of R25.

Pin 12 of U1-F is connected to the filter via R22. Are you sure it is 1 Meg (brown-black-green)? If it is a lower value 100K (brown-black-yellow), 10K (brown-black-orange), 1K (brown-black-red) it will swamp the filter and make the loud square wave you hear. But even then it will change in frequency with adjustment of R25.

If transistor Q2 were shorted across C to E (which I doubt) the frequency of the spurious oscillation would be much higher in frequency. If Q2 were open across C to E (again which I doubt) then the zaniness amount control would not affect the frequency of voice 2 weird frequency. So...

1) If R22 is not the correct value of 1 Meg and has been sub'd with a lower value by mistake you could get this loud square wave.

2) If the output of U1-F (voice two weird oscillator) is not changing with the adjustment of R25 then WD1B or WD2B are going somewhere they shouldn't. For example if WD1B was shorted to circuit point (ODD) the exact problem you are having would be present.

3) If setting the zany pot R26 to the middle of it's range and setting zaniness amount (R29) to the middle of it's range is not affecting the frequency of voice two weird oscillator, there is a wiring error in the vicinity of U1-F (voice two weird oscillator inverter).

Do you have an electronics buddy you can review the wiring with? All of us have stared at a mistake and completely missed it from time to time and sometimes walking through the wiring with another person brings the issue to light.

Good luck.

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adhdboy



Joined: Feb 16, 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Another thing to check. If you desolder one end of R22 and lift it to disconnect R22 from the circuit (careful not to break it unless you have an extra 1M laying around) and you still hear the loud square wave then that is proof positive that you have something around WSG voice 2 wired incorrectly. R22 is the only correct path of the signal from voice two weird oscillator to the output.
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello!

- The loud oscillation is a low frequency oscillation. Adjusting R25 generates a different frequency that can be high depending on the position of ths pot, but the low frequency remains unchanged in the background.
- On the other hand, adjusting R20 makes you initially THINK you are altering the low frequency because its low point is similar to the low frequency and by adjusting it a new frequency is generated but the low frequency remains in the backgroud.
- R22 is a 1 Meg resistor. In reference to your last e-mail and if you have gone through the whole post you might have read about it, but currently I have both R22 and R5 with only one leg attached to the circuit (disconnected) and the WSG acts as if they were connected... it's like they were not needed.
- All pots affect the output (slow / fast beeps, low / high frecuency beeps and so on).

Can I use your signal tracer to troubleshoot this ?

Again thank you Adhdboy for your time and help. I know we will eventually get this WSG to work.

There is a post where this guy built 2 WSG and put them together in one box and had a demo he posted in you tube and the sounds are great with no noise.
I wish to accomplish what he did on the first video. Please note that there is total silence at the beginning and the WSG is silent until he flicks a switch. According to the date of the post, this is before the Printed Circuit board became available.
On the second video there's a demo of the 2 WSGs working together... insane!

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-17007.html

Thanks and Happy Sunday!

TRO
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello friends:

One less problem... yesterday I discovered that the aluminum plate on which the Front Panel is mounted was not properly grounded with respect to the circuit board. After fixing it I have at least eliminated the hum or buzz that was generated every time I touched anything on the front panel with my hand.

This however did not help at all wth the noise problem.

Any more suggestions, knowing what we know up to now (shorting pin 13 to ground stops the noise)...

Thanks!

TRO
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adhdboy



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:09 am    Post subject:  Take some pictures
Subject description: A picture is worth a thousand posts
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Hi

Why don't you take some large, clear, color photos of the unit showing the front panel wiring the top and bottom of the PC board and the wires going from the pc board to the panel.

Maybe one of us will spot Shocked the issue.

Cheers

Ray

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Tronato



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello:

These are the highest resolution pics I can achieve with my camera.
The green alligator clip is substituting the faulty SPDT switch.
The cabling doesn't allow you too much freedom nor allows you to see much... that's why the two 1 Meg resistors are underneath the PCB to allow easy connect / disconnect to circuit.
In any case there are maybe better pics of the PCB on page 2 of this post.
Hope this helps. If more pics are needed of specific things let me know.
Have a nice day!

Thanks

TRO


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Pehr



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Perhaps you could try and push the transistors further down. I've had a transistor in one of my Sound Labs that I had to do this with, it had a really noisy output... try and see what happens if you just touch one of them. Q2 in particular.
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello!

Thank you Pehr for your suggestion,

I followed it but nothing has changed...

Sorry!

Thanks!

TRO
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Howdy again!

I don't know if this is relevant or not, but Voice B is louder than Voice A...

Thanks!

TRO

PS: Is there a painless way to commit suicide?
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tronato wrote:
PS: Is there a painless way to commit suicide?


Oh oh, that bad ...


So shorting pin 13 stopped the noise ... so when you do not short it ... what is s5 doing, and r26 and r29?

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello!

Well this is interesting... take a look at the 4th reply on one of my other posts...

http://electro-music.com/forum/post-144562.html#144562

I wonder...

Thanks!

TRO
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RF



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tronato -
Please take this as it's intended...

"Stay on task!"

Doesn't matter what problem someone else has - concentrate on your circuit.

You've isolated your problem to a certain area of the circuit, and there is a simple reason for it doing what it's doing.

It's a part, or a circuit problem. Either way, you can fix it.

You've isolated it to a certain part of the circuit, now look at it using what you know and pick out why that oscillator is not working right.

Ray has a great description of how it works here
http://www.musicfromouterspace.com/analogsynth/YOUR_FIRST_SYNTH/WSG_Reborn/WEIRDSOUNDGENERATORREBORN.html

Look at that circuit description and try to understand Idea what's happening in the area where you are having problems. When you start understanding what you are building instead of 'soldering by the numbers' you'll be far ahead.

bruce
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello again!

First answers for Blue Hell: S5= off, R26 and R29 = min (counterclockwise).

RF: I understand your point perfectly and be assured that I will get this WSG to work even if it's the last thing I do (with a little help from my friends).
I desoldered the front panel once and have no intention of doing it again, but if you look at the latest pics you must agree that because of the cables it is very uncorfortable to troubleshoot (unless you do it from underside of the PCB).
I am however beginning to understand why it is cheper to buy a new television instead of having one repaired.
On the other hand this post is getting a lot of views (1298 as of this writing) and once the problem is found it might become a sort of guide for new WSG builders (maybe as to what NOT to do).
It is also quite probable that potential new WSG PCB builders are waiting for the outcome before going for it.
Unless somebody has done it before I will try to compare the schematic to the PCB layout to see if they both match although I've been told that Ray would never go through all this trouble if he hadn't built a few and was certain that it's OK.
It does puzzle me however that somebody else has experienced the same problem with the PCB.
My electronics knowledge is somewhat limited (I bought a couple of weeks ago the book "Electronics for Dummies)!!!
This said, I thank everybody who has gotten involved and helped!

TRO

PS: Suggestions?
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tronato wrote:
First answers for Blue Hell: S5= off, R26 and R29 = min (counterclockwise).


I meant to ask if they do have any influence on the sound.

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello:

Blue Hell: Yes they do...

Thanks!

TRO
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Helllo Wednesday!

No suggestions... no posts!

What's up guys?

TRO
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello:
It is with great sadness that I am giving up on this WSG project.
I can't fix this without your help so let's let it be.
I heartly thank all who tried to help.
I don't recommend this project to anybody.
Sorry Ray... it didn't work for me.
May you all have long and happy lives.

Cheers!

TRO
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tronato wrote:
I can't fix this without your help


Oh but you can Very Happy

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Pehr



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tronato wrote:
Hello:
It is with great sadness that I am giving up on this WSG project.
I can't fix this without your help so let's let it be.
I heartly thank all who tried to help.
I don't recommend this project to anybody.
Sorry Ray... it didn't work for me.
May you all have long and happy lives.

Cheers!

TRO


Nooooo! Crying or Very sad

It should be able to fix! Exclamation Don't give up!

I doubt there's anything wrong with the board since Ray must have built one of these himself... however, this noise seems tricky to get rid of! Shocked

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Pehr



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What wires do you use? Single core? multi core? (it should be multi)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Perhaps you could try and replace the transistors?
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello!

Multi

RIP...

TRO
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