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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
Dimension T: A Dimension Effect Based On The Tau Phaser
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'll try this again with 500 Ohm trimmers for "Gain" on the Tau boards.
Let's see if the effect becomes less like a phaser with the delayed path lower in volume.

Maybe I'll design a PCB for this just for fun, even if I don't get the Dim D sound perfectly. There's a wide range of interesting FX that can be achieved with very few parameters: LFO level, Intial phase shift (for both tau's in common).

JH.

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gavgomad



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JH - out of curiousity, did the unit in your sample implement the filtering and cross-mixing of the Dimension-D, or is it still the sound of the APF ladders on their own?

I agree with Scott - a beautiful effect, even if not quite the one you were trying for.... Yet.... Wink

GREAT WORK JH!
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

gavgomad wrote:
JH - out of curiousity, did the unit in your sample implement the filtering and cross-mixing of the Dimension-D


Yes. Everything from the Dim D in here:

3-pole HPF for the same-channel delay path,
2-pole HPF for the cross-channel delay path,
bass boost for the dry path,
gain reduction when FX is switched on,
Increase of same-channel delay level in mode 4 (ok, the sample is just Mode 1 ...)
Relative change of modulation speed and intensity in modes 1 ... 4.

Not sure if the *general* level of delayed path compared to direct path is right; I'll try a lower level soon.

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here's a link to the whole file from last night:

http://www.lulu.com/content/2136864

It's 18 MByte wav format - takes a while to download.

JH.

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gavgomad



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
Yes. Everything from the Dim D in here


You HAVE been busy! I didn't realize things were so far along.... Wink

Wow.... Even the mode switches sound like they have been implemented...

jhaible wrote:
Not sure if the *general* level of delayed path compared to direct path is right; I'll try a lower level soon.


As it sounds now, it's a beautiful variation on the "Dimension" theme.... The trick seems to be "taming the beast", so to speak, to get that almost stationary quality on the more subtle modes....

Crossing my fingers that the level adjustment is successful! If anyone can tame this beast, you're the man for the job! Wink

As I say, I think this is a gem of an idea anyway, and there are plenty of opportunities to "unleash" the beast end of the phaser by playing around with manual control.

Thanks again for all of your toil, JH!

Gav.
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gavgomad



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
Here's a link to the whole file from last night:


Just missed this post....

Wow! There are some sweet spots in that sample! Was that simply cycling through the "modes", or are you manipulating the speed and depth manually as well?

Gav.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

gavgomad wrote:

Was that simply cycling through the "modes", or are you manipulating the speed and depth manually as well?


Just switching between the modes.

Here's a picture of the setup for this.

JH.


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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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v8pete



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK...OK...that does it!! I'm now going to have to email JH to say that I'd like to buy TWO Tau boards, not just the one that I originally ordered!!

I really like the way this is going!! - Jurgen, will you be able to provide schematics (or even hints) for the 'dim' parts on the veroboard (or maybe even a PCB!!). What would be really great is a setup which you could switch between a regular stereo TAU, two TAUs in series(?), and the JH dim TAU - that would be one nice rack unit !!


Pete.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v8pete wrote:
OK...OK...that does it!! I'm now going to have to email JH to say that I'd like to buy TWO Tau boards, not just the one that I originally ordered!!

I really like the way this is going!! - Jurgen, will you be able to provide schematics (or even hints) for the 'dim' parts on the veroboard (or maybe even a PCB!!). What would be really great is a setup which you could switch between a regular stereo TAU, two TAUs in series(?), and the JH dim TAU - that would be one nice rack unit !!

Pete.


Think about it that way:

These Tau boards are only half populated.
For the extra "dimension" stuff, you'd need a 3rd board.

If I design a dedicated board for just the chorus effect, that will only be one board (bigger than the Tau ones probably, but not much), or two Taus-sized boards at maximum.

I have to design a board anyway, so I can as well go for a dedicated chorus board.

I have some ideas for this already.
No more LM394 footprints - CA3046 arrays are good enough.
All the caps go beneath the transistor arrays: 1210 footprints for large SMD caps that are easier to solder than the thru-hole caps.
Probably a compander like the ARP Quadra Phaser has: no 570 chips, just CD4007 CMOS and opamps.
No more expensive components needed - because of the compander, not even low noise OPA opamps anymore.

A LFO section with the 4 preset buttons, and a second LFO with free rate and depth adjustment, that can be used independently and can be mixed with the preset section.
Potentiometer control of BBD level for subtle effects.
Potentiometer for "bias point" of th eall pass filter ladders, to determine around which point the modulation will work.

I don't think there will be any setting that emulates a Dimension D perfectly. But it could be a very powerful, and subtle if you want it, tool all by itself.

JH.

Now playing:
Sibelius, Sinfonie Nr. 3, Boston Symphony Orchestra, Colin Davis

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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:33 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm in Smile
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v8pete



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey JH - yes I see your logic here, if you have to produce another board then it might as well be self-contained.

One thing that comes to mind - I wonder if it would be possible to include within the CA3046 DIL footrpint, the SMD pad footrint for the LM3046M? Unlike the CA3046, the LM3046M is still in production, and available at less than 44p a shot here in the UK (Farnell). Its a regular SMD package (1.27mm between pin centres) so really should present no problems at all for hand-soldering. I am of course assuming that the basic specifications are the same. Just a thought!

Pete.
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
It's 18 MByte wav format - takes a while to download.


Being on dial-up, I waited til today to grab it (not on dial-up where I'm at now).

What a powerful effect, and a wonderful idea! If you'd like me to split this portion of the current topic into a new thread, say the word JH.

Cheerio,
Scott

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jhaible



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v8pete wrote:
Hey JH - yes I see your logic here, if you have to produce another board then it might as well be self-contained.

One thing that comes to mind - I wonder if it would be possible to include within the CA3046 DIL footrpint, the SMD pad footrint for the LM3046M? Unlike the CA3046, the LM3046M is still in production, and available at less than 44p a shot here in the UK (Farnell). Its a regular SMD package (1.27mm between pin centres) so really should present no problems at all for hand-soldering. I am of course assuming that the basic specifications are the same. Just a thought!

Pete.


I didn't know that - I'm afraid it's true. Crying or Very sad
I thought this was the generic transistor arry, if there is any.

It would be no problem to design the board for the SMD version. But would all the DIY builders who buy it be willing to solder 20 SMD ICs?
Big caps is one thing - doesn't matter if they are a little bit off the footprint. But ICs is a different matter.
Don't get me wrong, If I'd design that board just for myself, I'd probably put every IC there in SMD version (except those where a socket is needed). But I doubt such a board will be widely accepted ...
OTOH, it is easy to solder that kind of stuff, once you know the trick, and have practised it a few times ...

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:
If you'd like me to split this portion of the current topic into a new thread, say the word JH.


That's a great idea, my moderator! Very Happy
(seriously: I wouldn't know how to split a thread myself, or whether I need special right for this.) I'd be pleased if you do it.

How shall we call the new thread?

"Dimension T" (with T as in Tau, and "T" almost sounding like"D") ?
Wink

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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gavgomad



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I agree with Scott! WOW! I've listened to the sample even more, and it is a very unique effect indeed, and worthy of a place irrespective of the Dim-D! Wink

Just a thought....

Am I right in presuming that essentially all of the guts of a regular Dim-D, less the BBDs and the modifications to the compander circuit, are present?

Not that I'm looking to encourage toe-stepping etc., as it would essentially be incorporating a D-Clone, but how hard would it be to switch between a "Phaser" mode using the Tau ladders, and a "Chorus" mode using standard BBDs?

Not really cloning the Dim-D, per se, which is already underway elsewhere, but essentially creating a combination "Dim-P" and "Dim-D" board, using the same filtering, companding, and modulation circuit....

Would definitely add more to the size and cost of the board, but if the only difference between the Dim-D and the proposed Dim-P is the ladders in place of the BBDs, it seems like it may be a very minimal cost to add the BBDs and some switching circuitry....

Just a thought - feel free to scuttle me at any time! Wink

Gav.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

gavgomad wrote:
I agree with Scott! WOW! I've listened to the sample even more, and it is a very unique effect indeed, and worthy of a place irrespective of the Dim-D! Wink

Just a thought....

Am I right in presuming that essentially all of the guts of a regular Dim-D, less the BBDs and the modifications to the compander circuit, are present?

Not that I'm looking to encourage toe-stepping etc., as it would essentially be incorporating a D-Clone, but how hard would it be to switch between a "Phaser" mode using the Tau ladders, and a "Chorus" mode using standard BBDs?

Not really cloning the Dim-D, per se, which is already underway elsewhere, but essentially creating a combination "Dim-P" and "Dim-D" board, using the same filtering, companding, and modulation circuit....

Would definitely add more to the size and cost of the board, but if the only difference between the Dim-D and the proposed Dim-P is the ladders in place of the BBDs, it seems like it may be a very minimal cost to add the BBDs and some switching circuitry....

Just a thought - feel free to scuttle me at any time! Wink

Gav.


It would also increase board size. And in the end, if you have th etwo effects separately, you have two effects - otherwise you always have to choose.

And I don't want to step on the toes of him who designs the Dim D board.
I have just posted in his thread on the prodigy-pro forum again and told him about what I plan. I want to totally play with open cards here.
The Dimension D is the better effect, IMO. And it has the benefit of everybody knowing about it. I don't want to take that away from him. I promised. (If he doesn't have anything in June 2008, I'll go for a Dim D myself.)

JH.

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gavgomad



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I totally understand and agree JH....

1) There is inherent value in keeping the two effects separate, as I can see them being used for different purposes; and

2) I also see how there would be concern about this project conflicting with the prodigy-pro development if the BBDs were added - who wouldn't go for a board with the guts of a Tau as well, even if they didn't immediately use it?

I think I can wait a little longer for the official Dim-D either from yourself, or the other hearty soul on the project! Not like I can even get to the boards that I already have on the bench!! Wink

Apologies for the suggestion! Men of principle are far too few these days! Embarassed

Gav.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dimension T sounds good to me! Very Happy

Hang on...splitting......

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

annnddd.....split. We expect boards in a fortnight Laughing
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v8pete



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Posted just as the thread split, so pardon me if I repeat myself !

On the topic of SMD parts, this is how I see it:

As long as you select the SMD parts at a sensible size (ie. 0805 resistors, regular eg. S08 ICs with a pin spacing of 1.27 mm, the occasional 0603 part) & you have a half-decent soldering iron & some good tweezers the whole process is really no more difficult than building a regular board. We might as well face up to it sooner or later !!

Where I get frustrated is when some of the nice modern parts, eg matched pair transistors, are only available in stupid small, 0.5mm pin spaced outlines! Now although these can be done by hand, you'll soon get a headache!!

So guys, don't be afraid, it really isn't half as bad as you might think! Make sure that you have some proper solder with lead in it too, none of this lead free stuff (OK its a very good idea to make all the disposable white goods with this stuff - but yet another pain for the home constructor).

Pete.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:
I recorded a sample of sixteen stage per channel stereo phase shift bending a very simple patch on my DW6000. The phase shift channels are modulated antiphase by a triangle signal, and there is no regeneration. The signal in is mono, and the sample starts out with the dry signal before the phase shifter is kicked in.

http://mypeoplepc.com/members/scottnoanh/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/16_16_ster_anti_tri_1.mp3

Sort of dimension-like, it is, but there's still a bit more movement there. In any event, it certainly is not the effect that one would associate with a phase shifter. Who knows what results one would get if one faithfully reproduced more of the original Dimension path - IE, the filtered crossmixing?

Thanks for posting Scott. I remembered this sounded good, but forgot just how good--what a lucious, warm-bath of a sound, especially in headphones.

JH wrote:
Quote:
Here's a link to the whole file from last night:

http://www.lulu.com/content/2136864

This sounds nice too, but very subtle (to my ear at least). In fact, although your trailblazing is wonderful, maybe the effect is too subtle to merit all the resources involved. I'm not yet convinced anyway, FWIW.

Also, since I just bought a lifetime-supply of thru-hole polypropylene 2% .015s (for the Tau), the proposed SMD aspect would probably be a deal-breaker for me. Sad

Regards,
Joe
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:
annnddd.....split. We expect boards in a fortnight Laughing


Thank you for the split!

JH.

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jhaible



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

germaniac wrote:

This sounds nice too, but very subtle (to my ear at least). In fact, although your trailblazing is wonderful, maybe the effect is too subtle to merit all the resources involved. I'm not yet convinced anyway, FWIW.


Oh, I was aiming to sound subtle. No problem to create dramatic effects with this setup, too. Wait until there's two-LFO modulation and a high modulation index here!

Quote:
Also, since I just bought a lifetime-supply of thru-hole polypropylene 2% .015s (for the Tau), the proposed SMD aspect would probably be a deal-breaker for me. Sad


LOL. These tiny SMD caps are cheap. No need to go for polypropylene when they are combined with a resistance of exponential nonlinearity, IMO.
And be glad that I don't design around this huge Box of *splendid* 47nF polystyrene caps I bought from former GDR stock years ago. They are 1%, and something like 2.5cm * 2.5cm! Razz

JH.

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gavgomad



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Joe!

I think that a subtle Dimension effect using the Tau ladders with mode switches, on its own, might be a little close to a Dim-D, but not close enough to replace it. Different, but a limited effect.

But.... From what JH wrote a couple posts ago (still getting the hang of quotes - it's back there though! ;-P) I think the plan is to also include a "bias" knob to set the center frequency, and then have a second independent anti-phase LFO with rate and depth controls, and a level control for the delayed effect. I think you can increase the level of wash using these controls, even without regen controls.... JH can step in and set me straight at any time.... Wink

I think a combo of the Dim-T and Dim-D can be used for different things.... The T more "washy" and "phasey", where as the D simply adds "space" and "shimmer." How's that for subjective analysis! ;-P

I think I'll be game for a Dim-T, particularly as I didn't go for the Tau the first time around.... Wink

Gav.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ooops! JH beat me to it! Wink

Gav.
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