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jjj
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seraph
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 Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:59 pm Post subject:
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that's the layout of the Thummer
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jjj
Joined: Feb 28, 2008
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Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject:
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If the layouts of both units are the same, then the range seems pretty limited.
Knows anyone the exact layout of the Thummer? I couldn't figure it out from the Thummer's webside.
I prefer 61 note unit. |
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blue hell
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject:
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@jjj : please do not double post, I removed your other message.
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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Jim Plamondon
Joined: Apr 19, 2006
Posts: 9
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject:
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| jjj wrote: | If the layouts of both units are the same, then the range seems pretty limited.
Knows anyone the exact layout of the Thummer? I couldn't figure it out from the Thummer's webside.
I prefer 61 note unit. |
I agree with your assesment of the Wicki/Hayden note-layout, and appreciate your interest in the Thummer. 
The default note-layout of the Thummer uses three octaves of 19 buttons per octave (symmetrical around D) on each keyboard, with one keyboard per hand, using the Wicki/Hayden note-layout.
By default, the left-hand keyboard's note-layout is the mirror image of the right-hand keyboard's note-layout, thereby presenting the same layout to each hand (since one's hands are mirror images of each other, too, after all).
That's a six-octave range, which is more than any other instrument except the piano and organ (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_(music) ). It is, for example, more than the range of all bowed instruments together.
(jjj, when you refered to the Thummer's range and being "pretty limited," were you perhaps thinking of just one of its two separate 3-octave keyboards? I would agree that a three-octave range would indeed be "pretty limited" for a keyboard instrument).
Three octaves of 19 buttons per octave, packed in at maximum density, is the most that one hand's fingers can span. It is expected that generally speaking, one will play the Thummer with its two keyboards (a) strapped back-to-back, with the united result (b) strapped to a forearm brace on one arm, rather like the brace used to immobilize the wrist of a patient with repetitive stress injury. (Check out this video, and imagine that (a) the Thummer is smaller and lighter, and (b) it is strapped to a brace on the performer's left forearm, rather than being held by his left hand as shown in the video.)
This brace would support, stabilize, and position the Thummer in front of one hand -- at the cost of restricting that hand's movement over the surface of its keyboard. This restriction reduces the number of buttons that the braced hand's fingers can reach -- to about three octaves of 19 buttons per octave -- but in return for this reduction in mobility you get a considerable leap in expressive power, in two ways.
First, the thumb of the player's braced hand remains fixed over its thumb-operated joystick, enabling it to control expressive effects.
Second, the player can move the Thummer through space freely, using internal motion sensors (such as used in the Nintendo Wii) to modify timbre.
Between the Thummer's thumb-operated joysticks and internal motion sensors, its player can control up to 10 independent, continuous variables simultaneously. No other controller -- whether monophonic or polyphonic -- even comes close to this level of expressive potential.
Also, the Wicki/Hayden note-layout is optimal for exploring the newly-discovered musical property of Dynamic Tonality, especially across the syntonic temperament, which includes most of the tunings used in Europe's musical culture and many of those used by non-Western cultures, too.
jjj, did that answer your questions? Please let me know if the above was unclear, and I can post more information to confuse the issues even further.
Thanks!
Jim Plamondon
CEO, Thumtronics Inc
www.thummer.com
Austin, Texas |
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Jim Plamondon
Joined: Apr 19, 2006
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Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject:
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| jjj wrote: | If the layouts of both units are the same, then the range seems pretty limited.
Knows anyone the exact layout of the Thummer? I couldn't figure it out from the Thummer's webside.
I prefer 61 note unit. |
I should also mention that if one uses electronic transposition to keep the current diatonic's scale's notes centered on the "white buttons" of the Thummer's keyboards, then 19 buttons per octave are always sufficient to include the tonally-relevant intervals of any tuning of the (rank-2) syntonic temperament, even if those tunings have more than 19 notes per octave (e.g., 31 notes per octave, which is essentially the same as 1/4-comma meantone, with nearly-Just thirds and a rather flat perfect fifth).
If one adjusts the partials of the currently-sounding timbres to align with the notes of the current tuning, then these alternative tunings can sound as pure and rich as Just Intonation does when using harmonic timbres -- so you can have your pure consonances, and your modulatory freedom, too.
But only on a Thummer.
--- Jim |
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jjj
Joined: Feb 28, 2008
Posts: 135
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject:
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Hi Jim,
As you probably know (from ScienceGuy) I struggled myself (over Janko) to the Wicki-Hayden layout, too. What a shame that I only now (as pensioner) came to the realization that this is truly the best layout of them all!
May I ask you a favor? Coud you please draw a frame around the notes of your Thummer in my above shown Wicky-Hayden layout. This will help me to better understand the Thummer's layout. Of course shifting the layout +/- 6 notes helps to keep the keys in use centered.
Since the Thummer isn't out yet and probably will cost a fortune, I thought of building the above shown keyboard myself. Self is the man!
Actually, I intend to use the layout manually with manual and http://www.live-styler.de/ (YamahaStyles) accompaniment. The owner is a kind person and donated his software to me...
The buttons I thought to slice from broomstick handles (using Miter Saw).
I try to order PC keyboard SPST pushbutton switches from Alltronics/CA or else (...born in East Germany) I invent & build them myself, by gluing little PVC-tubes onto the buttons, putting them through holes of 7mm plywood board and using 3mm thick silver coils, salvaged from an old Farfisa or/and gold-silver spring alloy wire from my old Dr. Boehm organ, for contacts.
I plan connecting it to my existing Roland Synth or I could wire it to Sowa or Petkovs cheap MIDI encoders.
To add dynamic control for volume and tremolo variations, I thought up the following idea:
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Last edited by jjj on Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:25 am; edited 3 times in total |
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jjj
Joined: Feb 28, 2008
Posts: 135
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:10 am Post subject:
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I like to try out your App for the Wicki/Hayden layout on my PC, but for some strange reasons I can't make it sound on my PC keyboard...
The key pressing is visible. I'm using Firefox browser.
Right-click Configure FlashMidi doesn't open.
Albeit I also adjusted Windows IE's ActiveX according to Adobe's instructions, I can't hear a tune.
Would anyone know... what's wrong? Thx for the help. |
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jjj
Joined: Feb 28, 2008
Posts: 135
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:07 am Post subject:
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| Quote: | Ishould also mention that if one uses electronic transposition to keep the current diatonic's scale's notes centered on the "white buttons" of the Thummer's keyboards, then 19 buttons per octave are always sufficient to include the tonally-relevant intervals of any tuning of the (rank-2) syntonic temperament, even if those tunings have more than 19 notes per octave (e.g., 31 notes per octave, which is essentially the same as 1/4-comma meantone, with nearly-Just thirds and a rather flat perfect fifth).
If one adjusts the partials of the currently-sounding timbres to align with the notes of the current tuning, then these alternative tunings can sound as pure and rich as Just Intonation does when using harmonic timbres -- so you can have your pure consonances, and your modulatory freedom, too. But only on a Thummer. --- Jim |
Theory, to me at least, at times can be more confusing than clarifying.
I prefer rather practical, audible examples and comparisons to longwinded (confusing) theoretical explanations. |
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Jim Plamondon
Joined: Apr 19, 2006
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Jim Plamondon
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject:
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| jjj wrote: | [size=7] Theory, to me at least, at times can be more confusing than clarifying.
I prefer rather practical, audible examples and comparisons to longwinded (confusing) theoretical explanations. |
In which case, try the Max/MSP-based demo described here:
http://www.thummer.com/blog/2007/06/dynamic-tuning-mark-i.html |
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jjj
Joined: Feb 28, 2008
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Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject:
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I d/l the runtime and Synth App, but couldn't make it work. I just heard one and the same tune, apart from a slight modulation. Forget it, I haven't got all day to figure it out.
I'm glad that I myself discovered the fact that the W/H layout is the easiest to learn & play. That fact alone offers me lots of hope building a MIDI instrument the cheapest way. It just supposed to replace my Synth's awkward, traditional keyboard. I used to play the piano accordion pretty well... in C-major & A-minor only, but felt bored and lazy practicing the remaining 23 scales... With Wicki/Hayden that that Prob doesn't exist!
Who would have thought that the humble concertina layout harbors such an enormous potential...
Since no-one of you experts can help me to try the layout sound on my PC keyboard, I'll have to (self is the man) remap my PC keyboard with Live-Styler software.
Last edited by jjj on Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:30 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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GovernorSilver
Joined: Apr 26, 2004
Posts: 1349
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jjj
Joined: Feb 28, 2008
Posts: 135
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:22 pm Post subject:
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| Quote: | | ...Thummer is still alive! |
You mean... in its last throes? I hope not!
Since it's based on Wicky/Hayden's layout it might flourish.
It's price is going to be decisive how many people will buy it. In fact it shouldn't be expensive, yet I fear that a bunch of investors will inflate the price so, that most of us won't be able to afford. Best is to keep an eye on e-bay...
Last edited by jjj on Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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GovernorSilver
Joined: Apr 26, 2004
Posts: 1349
Location: Washington DC Metro
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject:
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| jjj wrote: | | yet I fear that a bunch of investors will inflate the price |
Jim said the Thummer would be sold for less than $500 US. Be sure to ask him before concluding that it will be expensive.
At the rate the US economy is going, you might benefit with strong Chilean currency vs. the weakening US dollar.
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jjj
Joined: Feb 28, 2008
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject:
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Alright, but you failed to take into account that I'm an age pensioner and live in (Africa like) underdeveloped CHILE. I have a bunch of people to look after. Thus, 500 bucks is a lot of dough for me. Since it's a relatively new instrument it requires lots of promotion. I could buy it at cost price, play it day & night and so, deliver useful feedback and at the same time promoting its virtues. At least I have time (and good ideas) on hand. Time is money, too! As a Muso I found my niche, too.
How would you know? Ahhh, sorry couldn't, for I forgot to disclose my secret to you. >>> Hear me blowing up!" Click on this: http://www.live-styler.de/home/images/jjj-DEMO.wma |
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blue hell
Site Admin
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Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 296
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:12 pm Post subject:
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That's some nice whistling, is that you jjj?
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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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jjj
Joined: Feb 28, 2008
Posts: 135
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:50 pm Post subject:
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Yes, it's me. You have got a great Dutch whistler, too. I saw & heard him on YouTube. Some of my friends in Australia put me on YouTube too, without my consent.
To see & hear them > open YouTube and write drinda into their search window. (The tall, wild bloke (chap) holding the glass you'll see their is a famous Australian Liberal Party politician.) |
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blue hell
Site Admin
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject:
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Cool! Your audience seems a bit giggly though in tube clip.
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Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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jjj
Joined: Feb 28, 2008
Posts: 135
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:22 pm Post subject:
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| Blue Hell wrote: | | Cool! Your audience seems a bit giggly though in tube clip. |
Yes, there were 2 kids in the front/right. That type of reaction is typical from children, because many of them just can't work out what I'm doing. After that initial laugh attack they were alright. |
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jjj
Joined: Feb 28, 2008
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Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:54 pm Post subject:
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Did I understand right that the Jammer's left box has its W/H layout mirrored.? If this is the case I it might adds to confusion, because I imagine that after some time of learning I'll memorize the configuration of right hand scale & chord patterns.
That means one would have to learn all the patterns (double) for each hand separately or am I wrong? I prefer to have only to learn one pattern.
Hopefully it's re-mappable?
Last edited by jjj on Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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GovernorSilver
Joined: Apr 26, 2004
Posts: 1349
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject:
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| jjj wrote: | Alright, but you failed to take into account that I'm an age pensioner and live in (Africa like) underdeveloped CHILE. I have a bunch of people to look after. Thus, 500 bucks is a lot of dough for me. Since it's a relatively new instrument it requires lots of promotion. I could buy it at cost price, play it day & night and so, deliver useful feedback and at the same time promoting its virtues. At least I have time (and good ideas) on hand. Time is money, too! As a Muso I found my niche, too.
How would you know? Ahhh, sorry couldn't, for I forgot to disclose my secret to you. >>> Hear me blowing up!" Click on this: http://www.live-styler.de/home/images/jjj-DEMO.wma |
I'm sorry, jjj, but you did not indicate a budget, so it was impossible for me to guess whether 500 US dollars is too expensive for you or not.
You are an amazing whistler, that is for sure!
You should contact Jim Plamondon directly to discuss business.
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MusicScienceGuy
Joined: Jun 22, 2007
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:56 pm Post subject:
jjj deserves a chance to try out the Thummer |
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| GovernorSilver wrote: | | You should contact Jim Plamondon directly to discuss business. |
While I have absolutely no idea of the Jim and his people might do, when the Thummer finally becomes a reality, I'm sure jjj will have a good case to be given an evaluation model, if he continues to promote the W/H keyboard as he has been doing.
Ken. |
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jjj
Joined: Feb 28, 2008
Posts: 135
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject:
Re: jjj deserves a chance to try out the Thummer |
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| MusicScienceGuy wrote: | | GovernorSilver wrote: | | You should contact Jim Plamondon directly to discuss business. |
While I have absolutely no idea of the Jim and his people might do, when the Thummer finally becomes a reality, I'm sure jjj will have a good case to be given an evaluation model, if he continues to promote the W/H keyboard as he has been doing. Ken. |
Thx, GovernorSilver and Ken ... for the flowers.
My search for that illusionary keyboard layout has always been a subject close to my heart. Even as teenager, while learning to play the piano accordion, I built a sliding ball bearing frame onto the keyboard with a wooden keyboard on top of it, to change scales. Basically the same idea I had with my two electronic organs (sliding the contact board).
Also, imagine how much drive it takes to go thus far as to painstakingly adapt a Synth's keyboard to Janko. I have been through all of that... and still not gotten to what I really seek.
After having discovered W/H with the help of concertina experts... the hard way, I'm confident that I'm finally on the right track.
Please... stop me now, if you can or I have no alternative than to struggle to the sweet end of getting there! I can't stop shopping around for pushbuttons and the wiring will be another chore... but nothing (apart from an evaluation Thummer) can stop me to continue my mission. That's how hopelessly devoted I am to make it happen.
Today I just finished translating Ger/Eng Live-Styler manual v10 for its owner; soon appearing on his Download page. Now he asked me to do yet another translation... At least that stops me from buying pushbuttons for a while.
Here's my website: http://jdrinda.tripod.com with some of my past Australian & American adventures... That WarzawConcerto knocks me out, too!
Interesting download that is: http://www.box.net/public/g6v2ubkvp3
Last edited by jjj on Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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seraph
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Location: Firenze, Italy
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:42 pm Post subject:
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| jjj wrote: | | I pride myself to be an emotional millionaire and a materialistic pauper! |
  
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