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zthee
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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 Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 5:57 am Post subject:
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| mono-poly wrote: | | zthee wrote: | Yeah, I know, it takes some thinking and it's done! 
Though I'm sad to report I removed the cushion last night  In favour of making a rack mount panel, but you could always mount the panel in a box with a cushion 
I've done some more thinking, and is feature creeping this panel now.. How about hardwiring the FS-1A to the signal input, and a triple chorus to the carrier input?
http://www.thehumancomparator.net/tmp/haible-vocoder3.png |
Only thing you should think about is the patch matrix.
A 36x36 is a comon one to get.
Other sizes are very very expensive.
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The Ghielmetti from my link above is around 150 Euros, for 20x20.
Are there 36x36 cheaper than that?
I think for a vocoder the small size (3mm between rows and columns) should be enough. I don't expect wild on-the-fly crosspatching as with a VCS3. Also, shorting pins should be ok here - you want to interchange sources for destinations, not mix them. (Or do you? ... well, maybe ...)
Jh.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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astroschnautzer
Joined: May 22, 2008
Posts: 31
Location: FINLAND
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| Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 11:39 pm Post subject:
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| jhaible wrote: | | mono-poly wrote: | | zthee wrote: | Yeah, I know, it takes some thinking and it's done!
Though I'm sad to report I removed the cushion last night In favour of making a rack mount panel, but you could always mount the panel in a box with a cushion
I've done some more thinking, and is feature creeping this panel now.. How about hardwiring the FS-1A to the signal input, and a triple chorus to the carrier input?
http://www.thehumancomparator.net/tmp/haible-vocoder3.png |
Only thing you should think about is the patch matrix.
A 36x36 is a comon one to get.
Other sizes are very very expensive.
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The Ghielmetti from my link above is around 150 Euros, for 20x20.
Are there 36x36 cheaper than that?
I think for a vocoder the small size (3mm between rows and columns) should be enough. I don't expect wild on-the-fly crosspatching as with a VCS3. Also, shorting pins should be ok here - you want to interchange sources for destinations, not mix them. (Or do you? ... well, maybe ...)
Jh. |
The nord modular vocoder can mix the signals , I think its a good feature.... real good for certain things.. |
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zthee
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 12:42 am Post subject:
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How does mixing work with a patch matrix? (Perhaps that's another thread, but anyway)..
If it's complicated I'd say skip it. If it's doable and doesn't require a lot of thinking and extra circuitry - I say put it in. But I'd prefer if we all avoid feature creeping this project and thus risking it not ever getting made...?
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mono-poly
Joined: Jul 07, 2004
Posts: 937
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Audio files: 2
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 12:46 am Post subject:
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Ooow that 20x20 is pretty fair priced indeed.
Didn't see that one before.
Mixing is possible but you really need to buffer the matrix if you go that way. |
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astroschnautzer
Joined: May 22, 2008
Posts: 31
Location: FINLAND
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 1:15 am Post subject:
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| zthee wrote: | How does mixing work with a patch matrix? (Perhaps that's another thread, but anyway)..
If it's complicated I'd say skip it. If it's doable and doesn't require a lot of thinking and extra circuitry - I say put it in. But I'd prefer if we all avoid feature creeping this project and thus risking it not ever getting made...? |
If you choose to make banaplugs instead of a patch matrix wouldnt it be just a matter of where you plug your plugs? Or is it possible with a patch matrix to make two junctions in one row? |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 2:11 am Post subject:
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| zthee wrote: | How does mixing work with a patch matrix? (Perhaps that's another thread, but anyway)..
If it's complicated I'd say skip it. If it's doable and doesn't require a lot of thinking and extra circuitry - I say put it in. But I'd prefer if we all avoid feature creeping this project and thus risking it not ever getting made...? |
Basically, you just use resistor pins instead of shorting pins.
If you want real independent mixing without any crosstalk, you'd need a virtual GND summing node input for each channel. I will *not* include this (not even the VCS3 has it), but you can add it on a piece of veroboard. It's just 40 opamps (10 quads like TL074).
But if you're using resistors of about 4.7k, you should get decent results with just a little crosstalk, without these opamps.
BTW: Are there any interesting demos for cross-patched vocoder channels? I admit that I never saw such a big benefit in it. The formant shifting that is always quoted as a main application can also be done with a pitch shifter in the Analyzer channel, can't it?
Anyway: I'll provide the possibility of cross-patching, of course. On the PCB, it's just a row of connectors where you plug in the matrix, or jumpers instead.
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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zthee
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 2:18 am Post subject:
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| jhaible wrote: | | But if you're using resistors of about 4.7k, you should get decent results with just a little crosstalk, without these opamps. |
Sounds easy enough!
Thanks!
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 2:21 am Post subject:
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| mono-poly wrote: | Ooow that 20x20 is pretty fair priced indeed.
Didn't see that one before.
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It's tiny, though - 1/4 of the area I've used in the synthi clone.
Probably just right for a vocoder. It's been a while since I had the big Synton vocoder in my hands, but that might be about the matrix size.
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 2:24 am Post subject:
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| zthee wrote: | | jhaible wrote: | | But if you're using resistors of about 4.7k, you should get decent results with just a little crosstalk, without these opamps. |
Sounds easy enough!
Thanks! |
You might also try to reduce the series resistors of the opamp outputs that feed the matrix, to improove crosstalk. I've been conservative with 470 Ohms, but the opamps might get away with a much lower value, without oscillating. It's all DIY, so everybody can customize it to his/her taste.
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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mono-poly
Joined: Jul 07, 2004
Posts: 937
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Audio files: 2
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 2:25 am Post subject:
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| jhaible wrote: | | mono-poly wrote: | Ooow that 20x20 is pretty fair priced indeed.
Didn't see that one before.
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It's tiny, though - 1/4 of the area I've used in the synthi clone.
Probably just right for a vocoder. It's been a while since I had the big Synton vocoder in my hands, but that might be about the matrix size.
JH. |
The Synton vocoder uses a smaller matrix indeed if we compare it to the ems one. |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 2:41 am Post subject:
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Layout for Silence Bridging / Filter Bank finished.
Current state of the layout:
http://www.jhaible.de/vocoder/working_on_vocoder.jpg
The Filterbank funktion will have 3 modes:
1) On
The Filterbank will always be mixed with the vocoded sound, acording to how you set the Filterbank sliders.
2) Off
Basic Vocoder function
3) The Filterbank function will fade in when there is no speech. So there is always a coloured Excitation signal. While you speak, the colour is set by the speech. When you don't speak, the colour is set by the 20 Filterbank sliders. This allows a seamless blend of ariticulated and non-articulated sound.
You can set the threshold - how many dBs down the speech signal is, before the filterbank is engaged -, and the attack and release time of the filterbank fade in/out, with 3 potentiometers.
I'm pretty excited to hear this working when the prototype is finished - so far I only know it from a Sennheiser Vocoder demo.
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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TekniK
Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 1059
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 7:05 am Post subject:
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| am realy curious |
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zthee
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:42 am Post subject:
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| zthee wrote: |
I just realized how big that board is!  |
It will fit into the bottom of a 19" rackmount enclosure.
Height will mainly be determined by the front panel elements you choose.
That is, if you don't want any channel pots, matrix, or filterbank functions, you can probably put it into a 2U enclosure.
For my own prototype, I've bought a 3U enclosure, and will probably use tiny potentiometers. For sliders, and/or a matrix, just use more height, or go for a tabletop enclosure.
Also, I do *not* expect the PSU to fit on that board, so you will probably have to use a separate +/-12V supply. (Yes, *not* +/-15V this time. But if you want to integrate it in a modular system, a separate PSU is recommended anyway. Don't know yet what the power consumption will be, but the EMS5000 has a 1.5A @ +/-12V rating.
But wait before you go shopping for a PSU - maybe there is room left for regulators on the board. The power transistors must go to an external (off-board) heatsink anyway. We'll see.
Today I start implementing the Slew/Freeze function. It will be a mix of EMS2000 and 5000 method (no PWM stull like the ETI), with some extras from myself. What I plan is to have a Slew/Freeze/Accumulate function. "Accumulate" works a bit like these "Infinite Reverb" programs: Everything sing into the microphone will "add" to the previously frozen spektrum. The normal Freeze function is available, too, of course. Again, well see how useful this is, or not. I'll implement it and try it.
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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Luka
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 1003
Location: Melb.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:37 pm Post subject:
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now that i have finished my mb808 this looks like it will take it's spot on my desk. probably about the exact same size pcb. we use a tilted desktop hammond case for the mb808, perhaps it will also suit the vocoder
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problemchild
melbourne australia
http://cycleofproblems.blogspot.com/
http://www.last.fm/user/prblmchild |
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frenchyinmunich
Joined: Jun 23, 2009
Posts: 115
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:22 am Post subject:
Panel |
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Hi Zthee,
I sent you a message in PM but it seems there is a problem for you to read it.
It was about the TZ VCO front panel you show us and asked for our point of view.
Apparently you are not in a hurry to produce it.
And it seems I am more interested. Could you please tell me what tool do you use to design your panels?
could it be possible to get the file I find that panel so nice for my buchla oriented clone that I want to start with that panel ASAP.
Thanks for the nice work,
Francois |
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TekniK
Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 1059
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:56 am Post subject:
Re: Panel |
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| frenchyinmunich wrote: | Hi Zthee,
I sent you a message in PM but it seems there is a problem for you to read it.
Francois |
You have to bomb his PM box with 3 PM's each day
He use illustrator Francois |
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zthee
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:12 am Post subject:
Re: Panel |
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| TekniK wrote: | | You have to bomb his PM box with 3 PM's each day... |
That's funny because it's true.
Well, enough about me! Let's get back on topic!
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frenchyinmunich
Joined: Jun 23, 2009
Posts: 115
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:16 am Post subject:
Voko |
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Hello,
I recently spoke with Juergen about different things and about the Voko.
I wanted to know if the EMS were built around OTA?
Nice to see you back Zthee.
f |
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TekniK
Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 1059
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:54 am Post subject:
Re: Voko |
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| frenchyinmunich wrote: | Hello,
I recently spoke with Juergen about different things and about the Voko.
I wanted to know if the EMS were built around OTA?
Nice to see you back Zthee.
f |
i think Juergen wrote somewhere in the topic it uses LM13700 |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:04 am Post subject:
Re: Voko |
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| TekniK wrote: | | frenchyinmunich wrote: | Hello,
I recently spoke with Juergen about different things and about the Voko.
I wanted to know if the EMS were built around OTA?
Nice to see you back Zthee.
f |
i think Juergen wrote somewhere in the topic it uses LM13700 |
EMS used CA3080, for the channel VCAs and for the Slew control.
I'm using LM13600 or LM13700. (Buffers are unused, so you can choose either chip.)
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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frenchyinmunich
Joined: Jun 23, 2009
Posts: 115
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:10 am Post subject:
OTA |
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Hi Juergen,
And EMS sounds quite ok...
Go back solder the rest of the board if it is not yet finish.
I am hurry to hear demos. And hurry to get the next secret weapon.
F |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:31 am Post subject:
Re: OTA |
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| frenchyinmunich wrote: | Hi Juergen,
And EMS sounds quite ok...
Go back solder the rest of the board if it is not yet finish.
I am hurry to hear demos. And hurry to get the next secret weapon.
F |
No Vocoder design work today. My wife has taken the day off, so I'm full-time father for baby-girl Anais today. Bible-study group tonight. Back to Vocoder layout work tomorrow.
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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frenchyinmunich
Joined: Jun 23, 2009
Posts: 115
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:45 am Post subject:
Moto |
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You moto sounds like some Samuel Jackson one in Pulp Fiction.
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