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frijitz
Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 1734
Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54
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 Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:37 pm Post subject:
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| elhardt wrote: | | I still have up online an audio file that switches back and forth between a 901 Moog sawtooth and one generated in Cool Edit Pro (link below). These are on the two opposite ends of the spectrum. They're as far away as I could possibly get, and still there is almost no difference at all. |
Hi Ken --
That result is intriguing, as the Moogey SAW waveform posted above has quite a bit of bowing. No big audible difference?
So I used my 10-step waveform generators to make a linear pseudo-saw (perfect staircase) and one with a large amount of bowing. Even with this exaggerated difference in waveforms I could barely hear any difference. I also tried putting the two waves through a filter with different settings. Same thing. No major differences.
Amazing, since the bowing was about 30%. I guess that the reset step dominates the sound. The bowing part of the waveform only has a slope discontinuity, so it doesn't affect the high harmonics very much.
Ian |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
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Location: Loss Angeles
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:22 pm Post subject:
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| suitandtieguy wrote: | | looks like a saw to me, but i might just be a fat pig in a wheelchair. |
Are you going to release Moog/.com format 901s? I've been wondering who would be the one.
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We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid. -mwagener
"IC 741. Sometimes you don't want fidelity." -Small Bear Electronics Catalog |
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CZ Rider
Joined: Dec 14, 2006
Posts: 17
Location: Southeastern,PA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:59 pm Post subject:
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Hey, looks like quite a bit of talk about the old Moog modulars here.
I have an old 1969 1P I play every day. Has three 901's and it rarely drifts.
I guess I have either one of the good ones, or I just keep maintained properly?
Never had a tuning instability problem with it, and it is bone stock. It does have a very unique sound, part of is the CP3 mixers that have unity gain at about 5. Crank 'em above 7 and they begin to distort.
So am I the only one here who still plays a Moog Modular daily?
Here is a video of my playing a sequence on it with a DIY counter shifting the 962 every 16th time the four note sequence plays. Makes the 960 a little more musical than if it just played each row in succession. The counter is made from a simple 4017 and 4024 circuit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2WzgyjkTBU&feature=user
And a photo of the setup with a DIY Minimoog/modular:
And the DIY counter:
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mono-poly
Joined: Jul 07, 2004
Posts: 937
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Audio files: 2
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:37 am Post subject:
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| Peake wrote: | | suitandtieguy wrote: | | looks like a saw to me, but i might just be a fat pig in a wheelchair. |
Are you going to release Moog/.com format 901s? I've been wondering who would be the one. |
If someone does i will buy some  |
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frijitz
Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 1734
Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:26 am Post subject:
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| Peake wrote: | | I know that they are line-related frequencies, but are they actual weaknesses in the design allowing it through to such a degree, or are they bumps in the frequency response? |
I'm really not following your question. How would such bumps in the frequency response actually come about? What possible mechanism would just happen to make bumps at line frequency harmonics? Just a funny coincidence that they are at those frequencies? Sorry, this needs further explanation on your part.
Ian |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Loss Angeles
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:33 am Post subject:
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| frijitz wrote: | | Peake wrote: | | I know that they are line-related frequencies, but are they actual weaknesses in the design allowing it through to such a degree, or are they bumps in the frequency response? |
I'm really not following your question. How would such bumps in the frequency response actually come about? What possible mechanism would just happen to make bumps at line frequency harmonics? Just a funny coincidence that they are at those frequencies? Sorry, this needs further explanation on your part.
Ian |
Okay: "Despite any technical details indicating otherwise, this Filter sounds incredibly musical. People can't hear that there might be technical details which should cause revulsion, and still love it." 
And don't talk to Ken. He doesn't even KNOW "not with those VCOs". Shrug...I'll happily give him a chance to see what I'm talking about, however.
_________________
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid. -mwagener
"IC 741. Sometimes you don't want fidelity." -Small Bear Electronics Catalog |
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suitandtieguy
Joined: Feb 05, 2007
Posts: 29
Location: Chillicothe IL USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:43 am Post subject:
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| Peake wrote: | | suitandtieguy wrote: | | looks like a saw to me, but i might just be a fat pig in a wheelchair. |
Are you going to release Moog/.com format 901s? I've been wondering who would be the one. |
there's really no good way to respond to this, because if i wasn't working on it i shouldn't say so and if i was working on it i shouldn't say either. in boutique synthesis there's too much talking about "real soon" when it actually means "not soon" or "not really."
i could say that currently the only historic tribute modules i sell are the Post-Lawsuit Lowpass Filter and the Sea Devils Filter, and quite frankly i'm running out of filters i want to make.
i would also say that i believe there is mojo in the 901, but i'm not convinced it's power supply noise or anything like that. i think the fact it has such cultural significance is a lot of it, and the limited interface is also part of it. i also think it's reputation for instability might be a bit exaggerated, and that its waveforms are a bit "meaner" than other oscillators. |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Loss Angeles
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:03 am Post subject:
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| suitandtieguy wrote: | | Peake wrote: | | suitandtieguy wrote: | | looks like a saw to me, but i might just be a fat pig in a wheelchair. |
Are you going to release Moog/.com format 901s? I've been wondering who would be the one. |
there's really no good way to respond to this |
That's a "yes", then. Like I didn't know. If anyone wants a DIY version sans panel, etc., I'll be happy to provide, sometime soon down the line. Not that anyone would 
I've heard a row of 8+ 901bs, then heard them after modding with a modern power supply. Not quite the same. They stayed in tune, for those for whom that is important (loses something musical, but most people don't consider movement to be musical, despite the creation of complex ensemble FX to make string synth/divider synths move...)
The fact that the entire design is unstable is important. IIRC, the pulse waves crap out at a particular point, making them -interesting- right around that point, the same way a filter is just under self-oscillation, where things are unstable between the two conditions. Also, the fact that they will then sound individually different as you change the PW of a group, is interesting. All of the non-linearities make it interesting. Remove them...and you'd be better off using a ROMpler.
I believe that Buchla once said "periodicity is the enemy of interest". The 901b is interesting, in a musical manner. Some people hear "imperfection" and cringe, not yet having grown excruciatingly bored with periodicity, or expecting everything to behave like analog's digital cousins.
If you've heard Switched-On Bach, you've heard the 901bs. Often with tape speed manipulation, if you're wondering where the odd formants come from.
_________________
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid. -mwagener
"IC 741. Sometimes you don't want fidelity." -Small Bear Electronics Catalog |
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frijitz
Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 1734
Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:18 am Post subject:
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| Peake wrote: | | frijitz wrote: | | Peake wrote: | | I know that they are line-related frequencies, but are they actual weaknesses in the design allowing it through to such a degree, or are they bumps in the frequency response? |
I'm really not following your question. How would such bumps in the frequency response actually come about? What possible mechanism would just happen to make bumps at line frequency harmonics? Just a funny coincidence that they are at those frequencies? Sorry, this needs further explanation on your part.
Ian |
Okay: "Despite any technical details indicating otherwise, this Filter sounds incredibly musical. People can't hear that there might be technical details which should cause revulsion, and still love it."
And don't talk to Ken. He doesn't even KNOW "not with those VCOs". Shrug...I'll happily give him a chance to see what I'm talking about, however. |
IOW, no answer. Why not just say so?
Ian |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
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Location: Loss Angeles
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:30 am Post subject:
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| frijitz wrote: | | Peake wrote: | | frijitz wrote: | | Peake wrote: | | I know that they are line-related frequencies, but are they actual weaknesses in the design allowing it through to such a degree, or are they bumps in the frequency response? |
I'm really not following your question. How would such bumps in the frequency response actually come about? What possible mechanism would just happen to make bumps at line frequency harmonics? Just a funny coincidence that they are at those frequencies? Sorry, this needs further explanation on your part.
Ian |
Okay: "Despite any technical details indicating otherwise, this Filter sounds incredibly musical. People can't hear that there might be technical details which should cause revulsion, and still love it."
And don't talk to Ken. He doesn't even KNOW "not with those VCOs". Shrug...I'll happily give him a chance to see what I'm talking about, however. |
IOW, no answer. Why not just say so?
Ian |
Because fighting and baiting fellow forum members is rude and counter-productive, and a waste of the server space? And because designers can be rude enough to imply that anyone not sharing their particular knowledge cannot possibly be correct in their own? Even when, or especially when, those not sharing their knowledge are right? And because I'm right...it's an extremely musical filter, overriding -any- design issues (used in a musical context, there are no foibles in the Moog design, at least until you expect digital synth accuracy or overload a small power supply with a Sequencer cabinet. These things I know from long experience.)
But go ahead and fight if you wish. It's okay with me. You can also continue to deride me for not rising to your bait. That's okay as well. I'll just go work on my cloning projects, that no one will want to build
_________________
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid. -mwagener
"IC 741. Sometimes you don't want fidelity." -Small Bear Electronics Catalog |
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norman phay
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 176
Location: North-East England
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject:
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| suitandtieguy wrote: | | in boutique synthesis there's too much talking about "real soon" when it actually means "not soon" or "not really." |
Unrelated to this discussion, but I just wanted to pull this quote and say that of late, holy shit, yes. Ordering boutique shit sure was a little less fraught in the early '00's. As you were, sorry, er.... |
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filterstein
Joined: Mar 17, 2007
Posts: 42
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject:
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| Quote: | | But go ahead and fight if you wish. It's okay with me. You can also continue to deride me for not rising to your bait. |
I don't believe mr Fritz wants to pick a fight here.
If you are designing electronics you want to know what accounts for the way a signal behaves. He's got a point here and it would be interesting to learn if you know of a different way how those results could be obtained.
Just techie curiosity i guess. |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Loss Angeles
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:57 pm Post subject:
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| filterstein wrote: | | Quote: | | But go ahead and fight if you wish. It's okay with me. You can also continue to deride me for not rising to your bait. |
I don't believe mr Fritz wants to pick a fight here.
If you are designing electronics you want to know what accounts for the way a signal behaves. He's got a point here and it would be interesting to learn if you know of a different way how those results could be obtained.
Just techie curiosity i guess. |
I'm just as curious, if anyone has an answer, but as a tech-interested musician, not as an EE. No amount of nay-say on The Filter can change my perception of its beauty. I'd asked him if the power supply we'd used in the test had any intrinsic hum, but got no answer- and I won't push for one. Am I out of line in this forum, to rely upon my ears, which have already told me everything that I need to know about The Filter?
_________________
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid. -mwagener
"IC 741. Sometimes you don't want fidelity." -Small Bear Electronics Catalog |
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frijitz
Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 1734
Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject:
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| Peake wrote: | | But go ahead and fight if you wish. It's okay with me. You can also continue to deride me for not rising to your bait. |
I'm not fighting or baiting. I agree that the filter has a special sound. But to explain this, you need to use sensible technical arguments. Your proposal of resonances -- 100 dB down in amplitude and somehow coincident with the line harmonics -- explaining the sonic qualities of the unit calls for some further clarification, since the physical mechanism by which this would occur is not obvious.
OTOH, the careful and extensive work described in great detail by Paul S. would seems pretty hard to refute, especially since an interaction between input level and the impedance of the circuit is plausible given the circuit topology.
As far as your power supply causing the hum, I have no idea. There's always lots of 60 cycle floating around. Why worry about it if it's 100 dB down?
Ian |
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synthetic
Joined: Jun 02, 2007
Posts: 76
Location: Glendale, CA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject:
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| Hell, I'd buy some 901 clones, just to see what the fuss is about. Maybe Peake would forgive me a little bit for turning into a MOTM troll. |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
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Location: Loss Angeles
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject:
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| synthetic wrote: | | Hell, I'd buy some 901 clones, just to see what the fuss is about. Maybe Peake would forgive me a little bit for turning into a MOTM troll. |
You'd just troll me for having recommended oscillators that are the utter antithesis of stable, accurate, and predictable (if you use a correct power supply). Children would run, grown men would weep...you know, 2.5 minutes of accuracy, 2.5 octaves of semi-accurate tracking...you can read the words but may not fully know what they mean when the machine is in use...but if you want to buy, don't blame me. On the other hand, if it pisses me off, why not praise them to the ends of the earth. I'm sure that something will work out  (Who's out there working on Roland and Buchla modules?)
Ian, I would indeed like to know why those bumps- they're not from the power supply we used in the test. My ear does not hear anything negative going on with The Filter, regardless. I'm sure that plenty of technical information is interesting, but I already know what I like from having used my ears. I'm going to go make music with it. That is what it is all about, unless people enjoy building and owning more than using in context. Sometimes I really wonder about that. I'm looking to make originals for myself, original power, etc. No one need follow me
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We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid. -mwagener
"IC 741. Sometimes you don't want fidelity." -Small Bear Electronics Catalog |
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synthetic
Joined: Jun 02, 2007
Posts: 76
Location: Glendale, CA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject:
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Dude, that was supposed to be an olive branch! I want to hear this stuff. If I wasn't a fan of fat, phasey oscillators ,why screw around with this analogue stuff anyway? Like you say, I WISH the software stuff sounded as good. It would be so much simpler, and you would get command-s and command-z.
I'm not Paul, I don't insist on seeing this stuff on a scope. I can hear what you're saying about oscillators. My desktop is a shot I took of Zimmer's modular, and I count at least 12 901Bs. When "the man who has everything" picks those to work with, I pay attention.
The nice thing about living in 2008 is, I don't have to choose. I can have 20 stable oscillators and 20 drifty oscillators. I can punch in a take, if it drifts out I adjust and punch in again.
Back to the topic, perhaps power can be modulated on the 901B clone module so you can dial in the amount of power wobble? Or make that a module itself: clean power in, dirty power out, and you patch the power connectors to the modules you want to mess up.
Don't flame me, bro. |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Loss Angeles
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject:
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| synthetic wrote: | Back to the topic, perhaps power can be modulated on the 901B clone module so you can dial in the amount of power wobble? Or make that a module itself: clean power in, dirty power out, and you patch the power connectors to the modules you want to mess up.
Don't flame me, bro. |
I didn't flame you. You'd know.
I don't yet know if or what part of the early power supply plays a or any part in the behaviour I've seen regarding 901a/bs. The 910 is, and correct me where I'm wrong because I'm trying to learn these things, half-wave rectified instead of full-wave, has germanium output trannies, and an unregulated -10V supply, only to the 901bs. If using normal or carbon comp resistors for the entire oscillator will avoid the issue of stability, then great! Less to change.
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We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid. -mwagener
"IC 741. Sometimes you don't want fidelity." -Small Bear Electronics Catalog |
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Funky40
Joined: Sep 24, 2005
Posts: 875
Location: Swiss
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject:
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| synthetic wrote: | | The nice thing about living in 2008 is, I don't have to choose. I can have 20 stable oscillators and 20 drifty oscillators. I can punch in a take, if it drifts out I adjust and punch in again. . |
Thats how it is !
I like to have rockstable without any drift and a huge range of tracking ( just begun to solder 4 motm VCOs )
AND i'm interested in that "Vintage" things.
Me too: i never liked that cycled modulatiosn of LFOs, thats why i barely used them in the past with my digital stuff.
| synthetic wrote: | | Back to the topic, perhaps power can be modulated on the 901B clone module so you can dial in the amount of power wobble? Or make that a module itself: clean power in, dirty power out, and you patch the power connectors to the modules you want to mess up. |
Sounds logic.
Is there any Reason that this should not be possible to do ?
| paults wrote: | | d) I am in design of a DVCO (digital VCO) that has a temperature sensor on the board. There is a jumper option to allow ambient temperature 'to drift' the DVCO's pitch. |
this sounds as one should build a drift Module for standalone too
Temperature sensor sounds good. maybe something more for a standalone module.
Let's say a video input that you hook up to the TV so you can turn colours into random drift ( Not only a Joke, but mainly )
Hey, and it would give a TV a meaningful existence, hehe |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject:
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| Funky40 wrote: | | this sounds as one should build a drift Module for standalone too |
It's called a Buchla 266. It is an amazing piece of gear, unrivalled to this day. The winky indicates that people believe that I would produce a 'drift' module.
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We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid. -mwagener
"IC 741. Sometimes you don't want fidelity." -Small Bear Electronics Catalog |
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paults
Joined: May 08, 2006
Posts: 21
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:19 pm Post subject:
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The DVCO 'drift' is generated by an Analog Devices ADR03ARZ 2.5V reference with a separate voltage output that is linear with temperature. This mimics (with scaling) a tempco resistor. The DSP has sufficient FLASH so that I can "play around" with the end results/sensitivity.
The use of lookup tables (easy to do now, because FLASH is cheap and all newer uPs/DSPs have lots of FLASH, much more than is needed for the main algorithms I implement) also allows one to purposely apply 'warp' to the exponential frequency lookups, so in theory a 'voltage-copntrolled detuning' could be done. One could 'dial in' the degree of warp. It would not have to be a constant linear deture, it could be 'wiggly' so as you played up/down the keyboard, the VCO(s) would go in/out of 'perfect tuning'. This is a logical extension of the MOTM Cloud Generator concept.
With analog VCOs, you have to "throw hardware" at the problem (if you consider it to BE a problem) of drift/stability. With a DSP approach, you will *always* get stable, drift-free oscillators. Then you throw *software* at it (free except coding time) to "season to taste". |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:15 am Post subject:
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Drift as a musical feature- I think that's a good idea
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We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid. -mwagener
"IC 741. Sometimes you don't want fidelity." -Small Bear Electronics Catalog |
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Danno Gee Ray
Joined: Sep 25, 2005
Posts: 1351
Location: Telford, PA USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject:
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Hey Terry,
I for one dug the video.
Is there any way you could send me the schematic for the sequencer / counter?
Dan |
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mosc
Site Admin
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:43 pm Post subject:
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Hey, let's have these discussions in as respectful and courteous manner as possible. Here, if you don't have something nice to say, please don't say it.
As for as the sound difference between the MiniMoog and the Modular - I would say not too significant, but all Moog filters sound a little different, IMHO.
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my music and other stuff |
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Peake
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject:
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| mosc wrote: | Hey, let's have these discussions in as respectful and courteous manner as possible. Here, if you don't have something nice to say, please don't say it.
As for as the sound difference between the MiniMoog and the Modular - I would say not too significant, but all Moog filters sound a little different, IMHO. |
Agreed! Perhaps as well, far less branding, commercial product placement and "raining on parades".
Agreed on the difference between the two, but in general, the Modular filter is more open-sounding and less spitty. The Mini in general gets meaner-sounding, a bit tighter and focused, if that makes sense. I've listened to the Modular straight out of the filter (the 902 makes things sound smaller, so the Minimoog VCA might as well) but not the Mini, so I can't say exactly what that filter sounds like solo, as the VCA is in the chain.
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We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid. -mwagener
"IC 741. Sometimes you don't want fidelity." -Small Bear Electronics Catalog |
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