About Midi and Layers (special to the Rack)

[Wout Blommers]

[Synthluver]

I choose the Nord Rack2x over the keyboard version (already got too many keys) based on reputation for good sound.

Now I am totally confused and totally disappointed. I have many issues with it, but let's concentrate on what this thread is about : Midi and layers on the Rack2x.

I have read the instructions book many times (and now this thread many times also), spent many hours trying to figure things out, to no avail.

Can you or can you NOT use layers with midi? How? On one hand, the manual says to change midi channel to the same one for all the slots, and turn the slots on or off to get layers. It also says all slots respond to incoming midi (on the slot's channel all the time).

It seems to me it is the latter that prevails. Whatever slot(s) is lit up, they all play if all on the same channel. The only way to silence b-c-d is to assign their slot's channel to off.

In a case where a-b-c-d are assigned to channels 1-2-3-4, turn on only slot C for example, and you hear only slot a (on channel 1) even if it's not lit up.

The leftmost thing mentioned in this thread (but I am not there yet) is confusing also. What if i want a layer with slot C and D. Is slot A (not lit) the leftmost one? Again, before solving this point, I must solve the regular layer management.

So instead of having 4 syths in one, I either have a one slot synth or a totally unmanageable one. Clavia's site does not seem to offer an updated OS for the 2x

There must me something I am not figuring out right. Please help.

[Wout Blommers]

Synthluver

[Synthluver]

Woww!! Thanks for the prompt and elaborate answer. I gather from browsing around that you are kind of the main man around here. And a good job you are doing. It's all in the spirit of helping others without waiting for anything in return. It deserves commendation.

I think there's a little mistake in the wording of one line in my message above. Anyway, I'll make the most of your reply (thanks again) and report my findings as soon as I can. I will also try another keyboard. My test were made with an el-cheapo Kaysound keyboard, that has however never had any problems driving any midi stuff (within it's own limitations).

[Synthluver]

Nope... the leftmost thing does not work, same results as before.

Before starting, let's say that besides channel 1 to 16, most midi equipment use channel 0 to indicate ALL channels. No such thing on the 2x... off or 1-16

Now in order to simplify things when debugging, it's important to get things as simple as could be... So I did the following :

-silence slots C and D by setting their channel to off
-select for slots A and B a preset for which the unison l.e.d. is off (less osc's working) and that are mild and much distinctive from one another (slot A on 16, slot B on 93)
-concentrate on channel 1 (when active) for boths slots.

The results are :

slot A on channel off, slot B on channel Off : no sound, either slots lit up (that was expected)

Both A and B on channel 1... you can hear both patches, with either slots lit up

Slot A on 1, B off, you can hear slot A with either A or B lit up

Slot A off, B on 1, you can hear Slot B with either A or B lit up

I skipped a few results, but having been a methodical as i can, reducing the number of variables, my conclusion is just as earlier : using channel 1 only, you can hear all the slots that are set to this channel, no matter which slot is lit up.

A few more things :

- setting a slot to channel 2 (A or B) will silence that slot, no matter which one is the leftmost active one.

- I have noticed that performances don't (SEEM) to show this unfit behavior. I have not tested performances yet, sticking to the basic layering mode, not in performance mode, trying to solve that point first. That could very well be the culprit, although the manuals does not mention about having to be in performance mode to use layers.

- My global midi channel is set to 16, which is i believe, the way to go.

So that leads me to believe that layering can only be done in performance mode. Maybe that's what the manual wants to say when it says all slots share the same editing area (buffer).

Fiouuuu!!!!!

Will be doing the same tests as above now, in performance mode.

Hummmm... early tests (before posting this) are not encouraging... seems to behave exactly the same way. The thing is : unused slots are set to midi channels other than one. On the very first performance (and without saving changes), if you turn off (slot not lit up) A and B and activate C and D, you can still hear A and B.

Hard to know what to think any more. The last bunch of tests were performed with a Yamaha keyboard. I'll fish out my Roland PCR-800 (which i don't like all that much) but that I am sure can send to a specific midi channel instead of to all.

[Synthluver]

Nope again. Done pretty much all i can with an Edirol PCR-800.

Performances are the same. Maybe I am expecting too much. Layered slots do work when they are set up properly. Up to 4, with proper channel assignments.

However, the manual is wrong when stating you can turn slots on or off to select which one you want to use. The only way to achieve that is to turn the slot's channel off or to the exact channel the controller is using.

[Wout Blommers]

[Wout Blommers]

[Wout Blommers]

Just a reminder for myself (sorry, I use this thread as a note book for an article about this too)...

Why is a Layer saved with all Midi channels directed to 1? If they use 2, 3 and 4 too, these Slots will react to that Midi channels; so directing these all to channel 1 leaves 2, 3 and 4 free to use by the sequencer to control other midi gear.

(myself)

[Synthluver]

Thanks 'Wout' for looking me over on this. I'll put the matter to rest for now, after saying this :

-tests were all made with direct connections (no MIDI hub or USB connection) and first grade short midi cable.
-true the manual is one of the nicest around, well printed.. etc... but is similar to the synth itself in the way that there are things in there that are not exacly as they should.
-all this began when I wanted to get deeper into the Rack2x, see what it's possibilities were for live performing as it has a lot of knobs to tweak. I'll put it back in its earlier role, which is good sounding polyphony for my DAW software. Not a tweaker's synth.

On the strong side for the 2x , well built, great sound overall, my best organ sounds machine, sounds even better the Kurzweil 2500x

Live tweaking will go on as usual the analog way with my Little Phatty, Mopho-BCR2000 combo, and live polyphony with the Blofeld (about which I was not totally crazy at first, but that reveals a few more good sides every time I use it).

[Synthluver]

[melmac]

Hello again,

After a week with my „new“ Nord Rack 2X and your very helpful information in this forum I have understood the principles of the specific “MIDI/slot-behaviour” of the Nord Rack.

My intensions are: Making sounds and playing music, and NOT reading manuals or to fiddle out how to “trick” the device. Nevertheless: The sounds of the (single) programs are great but it would be very nice to make layers easily (and without changing the MIDI channels all the time).

Therefore I checked the following possibility (perhaps someone other already had this idea):

- I have built a “silent” program and stored it at program number “1” (i.e. NO sound when pressing a key)
- MIDI global channel is set to “16”
- MIDI channel of all the 4 slots A, B, C and D is set to “1” (one!)
- the master keyboard (a Korg Triton 61 LE) is sending on channel “1”

How it works:

Case 1 - Playing single programs: Select on slot A a program (different from #1 – of course), and select on the other 3 slots the program #1 (= silence). When pressing a key you can only hear the single program chosen in “A”.

Case 2 - Playing layered programs: Select on two or more slots the programs you want to layer (again: different from # 1). When pressing a key you can hear all the programs chosen.
To “mute” slots you only have to select the program #1 again – that’s it!

For me, this is a very easy possibility to make layers.
Perhaps you can tell me your opinion about that and if there are some “faults” in my way that I have not thought about.

Have a good time!

[Wout Blommers]

[Synthluver]

melmac : Thanks for your input.

Let me decipher your post and maybe make a few more tests. You have probably read my exchange from last week with Wout. My own test were focused on making layers work with Slot A on channel 1 (the midi controller on 1 as well) and the other slots on any which channel I could think of. The postings, as much as I tried to write them accurately can be confusing.

Let me state again, in resume, my conclusion : that layering DOES work BUT :

a) the manual is wrong on turning slots on or off by pressing their respective buttons
b) All slots you want to hear must be on the channel you want to use
c) All slots you don't to hear must be on a different channel
d) if you follow point b) and c), it does not matter which slot is lit (supposedly active), all those set on the controller channel will sound, all others won't.

My tests were extensive enough to be absolutely sure of the above, but who knows, is there something I have overlooked or some combinations I have not tried? It's not entirely impossible but I doubt it. I am ready to put a little bit more work, just in case.

I will add that I had the idea too of making a silent program to help manage things, but in the end, decided not to push things this way, using layers properly set with the rules as stated above. I will try and see what comes out.

Equipment used : Nord Rack2x, Kaysound, Yamaha or Edirol PCR800 controller plugged directly into the rack (no midi interfaces, no MIDI hub, no computer), global Midi channel on 16 on the rack.

[Wout Blommers]

[Wout Blommers]

There4 is another configuration I like to ask you...

It may indicate a difference between the Keyboard version and the Rack. Which Rack owner wants to try to copy this and report his/her findings?

I set up a Performance, in which Slot A contains an Arp, which plays constant using the Hold function. I play a chord and the Nord breaks it up into the arpeggiation. Then I deactivate Slot A (no Led lit) and activate Slot B. This Slot is loaded by a mono lead sound. When I play the lead and use different notes than the Arp uses. I can play the lead and the Arp stays the same. The Arp doesn't even react to the ModWheel and the PitchStick

BTW it isn't necessary to set Slot A into Hold: just switching to Slot B while holding the keys will have the same function: all controllers off! (Partly Local off) Hold only provides larger arpeggio's.

Wout

[Synthluver]

Wout...

Well the Nord Lead 2x manual (which also covers the Rack2x) says about layering, and I quote including bold style:

Layering

Layering means playing more than one program at a time. On the Nord Lead 2x you do this by simply selecting more than one Slot. Note that layering sounds work quite differently on the Nord Rack 2X. On the Nord Rack 2x all Slots you want to be layered should be set to the same MIDI Channel. It does not matter which slots are selected or not since all slots respond to incoming MIDI data all the time.

Once that is said, the manual goes on explaining Slots and Layering, but no more references on particular items as to differences between the Lead and the Rack.

Now back in retrospective, the paragraph quoted is exactly my conclusions, but before coming to that conclusion, I still had to grasp the concept, which was harder since many things did not work in the text that followed the quoted paragraph and i had to figure everything out.

So in a sense, I would say that the manual IS right, but since the working is so different than expected (other than the quoted text), I qualified it wrong in my previous post. I would say now it is not explicative enough for new Rack2x owners (and confusing) but not wrong.

[Wout Blommers]

[Wout Blommers]

So, what’s left in this discussion is the question: “Why did Clavia changed the Midi implantation of the ‘leftmost Slot’ feature when creating the NordLead2?”

To answer this is to ask first: “Why did Clavia implemented it in the first place?”
The designers created a synthesizer for the performing artist, which can be used in the studio also. This means Performance mode is in that perspective much more important than Program mode, thev later is only for creating a single sound. Creating a Layer and therefore a Performance is on the Keyboard version rather easy, because it controls only active Slots. Those not active will not sound playing the Keyboard. Nothing to do with Midi at all; it’s just the way the Keyboard is implemented.
This way to create Layers and Performances the designers also implemented in the NordRack (note this is the first version!). When a Midi keyboard is connected set to channel 1, which is most likely Slot A, by just activating the other Slots the Midi controller has the same function as the NordLead Keyboard and easy creating Layers is secured…

However…
Most NordRacks were used in a studio set up, in which the Midi configuration would be (again most likely) Slot A to D directed to channel 1 to 4 respectively. At first sight no problem, as long if the user won’t activate other than Slots A, because these are always reacting to their own Midi channels.
But this also implies a stored Layer in Performance mode won’t work that easy.

In short: using a Layer will lose three Midi channels!

The Layer is controlled by the channel of Slot A, so the other channels are free to be used to control other things. If Slot A to D are still on their dedicated Midi channel as if they were used as single sounds, B to D will react to the wrong data, so these Slots have to be set to channel 1 or their channels have to be muted on the controlling Midi device, not very nice in the studio. It’s better to set up a Layer to channel 1 in the first place. Just consider scrolling through the Performance mode memory (PCMCIA card or intern on the 2X) in search of a nice strings sound. Every upload has to be changed!!! And the user likes to hear it while playing the rest of the Midi channels at the same time.

Conclusion: the ‘leftmost active Slot’ rule isn’t necessary on the Keyboard version and a pest on the Rack version for which sake it was implemented in the first place.

It is wise Clavia dropped this feature, only they forgot to adapt the Manual too

Wout

[Synthluver]