Joined: May 18, 2010 Posts: 308 Location: Oak Park, IL
Audio files: 5
Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:32 am Post subject:
Considering the shipping hassles for our overseas buddies, let's use what Les and Droffset just did as an alternative. We've seen enough of these grab bags to see there are a few differences and some similarities in ics. I suggest that those willing to participate but were nagged by the shipping just follow one of the list of chips posted and have at it.
Since this challenge is more about working within the limits of the list and not a competition between builders, let's call this bump in the road resolved. _________________ Zontar Prevails!
Joined: Feb 02, 2009 Posts: 515 Location: London area
Audio files: 2
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:07 am Post subject:
Ok a bit of brainstorming:
Should these working posts be in a separate thread?
I'm looking at the list of chips and breaking down by function. Hopefully looking at it as lego pieces will reveal some ideas.
12 2-input NOR gates
4 2-input NAND gates
20 Special function gates(AND/Or select) - basically toggle switches to turn a data stream on and off...very interesting
6 non-inverting buffers(for interfacing with external devices?)
3 divide by 8 counters(4022), think baby-10, but just 8
3 data selectors, 8 channels each,
2 special function ANALOG data selectors(4052)
I have a key matrix from an little music keyboard with the matrix and keys intact, I'm thinking of trying to do a little key matrix scanner, as an interface for bent stuff or a lunetta. It won't conform to the typical musical output of a keyboard.
It's a 5x8 matrix, so 5 pins/colunms each connecting to 8 pins, except for the last one which connects to 5.
I'm thinking of how old school typewriters work, start at the top of the page, type from left to right, and when the row is full you hit return. Then the page shifts up a row, the carriage goes back to the left side and it goes again.
So:
Use 3 NOR gates to make a very very high speed variable oscillator for the master clock (9 left)
Use a 4040 and a rotary switch to be able to set the division of the master clock, and the base speed of the whole device. (5 left)
Use two of the (4022) counters, one for the columns(A,B,C,D,E) and one for the rows(1,2,3,4,5,6,7,.
Set them up so that the column counter waits for the row counter to do 8 steps before moving to the next step.
A
12345678
B
12345678
C
12345678
D
12345678
E
12345
A
etc etc etc
When a column's step is on it sends a 1 to the rows. All of the row pins are pulled down, waiting for a 1. Press a key, then that little bit lights up. Let go of the key it goes back down.
After that I'm not sure what to do with it, but there's plenty to work with. This can be made to create both parallel and serial data, not sure which is more useful.
Also at audio rates, with a bit of shaping, the output data stream might make a nice droner. Then divide it an octave down with a 4040 and mix them together for a thick sound...hmm...
Uses for NOR gates:
Oscillators
You can make RS latches
You can make inverters by just connecting the inputs together
Joined: Jun 11, 2010 Posts: 116 Location: Northampton, UK
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:07 am Post subject:
Draal wrote:
Considering the shipping hassles for our overseas buddies, let's use what Les and Droffset just did as an alternative. We've seen enough of these grab bags to see there are a few differences and some similarities in ics. I suggest that those willing to participate but were nagged by the shipping just follow one of the list of chips posted and have at it.
Since this challenge is more about working within the limits of the list and not a competition between builders, let's call this bump in the road resolved.
Mine have just been couriered over from New Jersey and have made it to London. Just a few more days and I should have 4 genuine lucky bags of my very own. If anyone in the UK wants a bag I will have a couple spare.
Still makes sense to use a list for anyone who's struggling to get a bag - just good to have a few oddities in the list to push people to work outside the box.
Really looking forward to seeing what I've got & making a start at last.
Should these working posts be in a separate thread?
I'm looking at the list of chips and breaking down by function. Hopefully looking at it as lego pieces will reveal some ideas.
I've been wondering the same things. I wouldn't mind sharing ideas in this thread but also understand the concept of the challenge is to reveal what we can do with what we have so if the consensus is to wait to the end that's fine.
I've been following the functional block approach too. I was thinking I'd get my parts and the idea for an overall concept would emerge. That hasn't happened. Too many parts and too many ideas.
Joined: Feb 15, 2011 Posts: 363 Location: Null and void
Audio files: 2
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:57 am Post subject:
Captain Biscuits wrote:
Mine have just been couriered over from New Jersey and have made it to London. Just a few more days and I should have 4 genuine lucky bags of my very own. If anyone in the UK wants a bag I will have a couple spare.
Still makes sense to use a list for anyone who's struggling to get a bag - just good to have a few oddities in the list to push people to work outside the box.
Really looking forward to seeing what I've got & making a start at last.
awesome, ill take one off your hands if theyre still available !
email is paradigmx #at# paradigmx #dot# com
nice one
Cheers
Ben
Id like to have a go at this, only built one cmos thing in my life, a schmitt trigger photoresitors thingy from the Nic Collins book, would like to try with a random bunch of things, sounds like a fun challenge.
Joined: Mar 23, 2007 Posts: 1502 Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
Audio files: 28
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:33 pm Post subject:
Jeese - You guys are killing me - this looks like so much fun!
I wish I could do this - just too many other things in my life right now...
Go nuts with the ideas here...
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:41 pm Post subject:
4503 Application hints
droffset wrote:
Ok a bit of brainstorming:
Should these working posts be in a separate thread?
I'm looking at the list of chips and breaking down by function. Hopefully looking at it as lego pieces will reveal some ideas.
...snip...
6 non-inverting buffers(for interfacing with external devices?)
I haven't seen any objections to posting design ideas here so I'm going to start. This follows on from droffset's comments and the fact that I'd like to see everyone have a chance to make the most of the parts they've got.
The 4503 Hex Non-Inverting 3-State Buffer shouldn't be a part that has a question mark beside it for a Lunetta design, it should be a part that inspires lots of possibilities. A question mark suggests to me an unfamiliarity with tri-state logic, how it works and what you can do with it so here's a quick beginner tutorial on tri-state logic and a few basic applications for the 4503. Most of you probably know all this stuff but if you keep reading and notice mistakes, point them out, as nothing is worse than telling people the wrong thing at the start.
What is 3-State or tri-state logic?
If you look at the truth table in a data sheet for most logic you'll see 1's and 0's in give 1's and 0's out. That's kind of the whole point of binary logic, two states, 1 or 0. With 3-state logic you get another output for the 1 or 0 in, high impedance, also known as Hi-z and tri-state. An easy way to think of this third state is 'off'; the output isn't driven high or low, it's just 'off'. This is useful because it allows you to tie a bunch of tri-state outputs together directly, provided you make sure that only one of the outputs can turn on at any given time. Normally tieing outputs together is a bad thing, they tend to fight each other, give lousy logic levels, cause the chips to draw too much current, and if you have more than two outputs you might even cause a chip to release it's magic smoke. This can all happen with tri-state outputs too, just don't turn on more than one output at a time. If you have the situation where all of the outputs can be off you need to add a pull-up or pull-down resistor to ensure you don't have an undriven input.
4503 Hex Non-Inverting 3-State Buffer: six buffers and two disable controls. The part doesn't have individual control over each buffer and it tri-states with active high control inputs which isn't the most useful for us, but there are inverters to solve that issue. It has a bit of an odd configuration with one disable input controlling the first four buffers and the other controlling the last two, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. So here are a few simple tips for using this part.
The most basic application is to use the 4503 as a signal gate, I've shown a single buffer in the diagram below just because it's easier to represent the concept but the disable pin does control multiple buffers. Whenever the disable pin is low, whatever is on the input appears on the output. When the disable pin goes high the output goes to whatever state you have chosen depending on whether you have added a pull-up or pull-down resistor.
Since you can control whether the output goes high or low with a resistor when the buffer is tri-stated you can turn it into an inverter by tieing the input high and adding a pull-down on the output. The output will be the opposite of the disable pin control signal.
Now that you can make an inverter for a disable signal you can do something really useful with this device. If you configure one of the buffers in the first bank of four as an inverter and use that output to control the second disable pin. Now the two sections of the chip
are enabled at opposite times. Connect two of the remaining outputs of the first section to the outputs of the second section and you have a dual 2-input or 2x2 multiplexer, basically a DPDT switch. I think that's pretty useful functionality from a hex buffer.
If you have more than one 4503 you can probably see that you can do a lot more with a little additional logic. Two 4503's can make a dual 6-input mux or a triple 4-input mux. 4017's and 4022's are great controllers for these parts because they only have one active output at a time, although the logic is backwards so you need to invert the outputs, NORs can be useful with this too.
Hopefully that's enough to get anyone unfamiliar with tri-state logic started designing the 4503 into a Lunetta. I've got a couple of them and I haven't figured out what I'm going to do with them yet but that's because I see too many possibilities.
4503_applications.JPG
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4503 applications
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Joined: Feb 15, 2011 Posts: 363 Location: Null and void
Audio files: 2
Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:06 am Post subject:
RF wrote:
Jeese - You guys are killing me - this looks like so much fun!
I wish I could do this - just too many other things in my life right now...
Go nuts with the ideas here...
bruce
You can help me if you like !
Having only built one CMOS thing ever, from a 'put this resistor here' kind of build guide, i think i might struggle
Oh well, all good fun and part of the learning process. Maybe i can build an authentic Sh101 clone...
Joined: May 18, 2010 Posts: 308 Location: Oak Park, IL
Audio files: 5
Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:29 am Post subject:
Thanks for the write up Brock! My status has been a bit sluggish due to a number of factors; one of them being troubleshooting my old turntable. I have found the time to incorporate 2 ics from this kit to my current lunetta though . The 4512 and 4052 are almost all wired up. May not be part of the challenge but I couldn't resist; I had a glaring open space in my lunetta that just had to be filled! _________________ Zontar Prevails!
I've been working away on my challenge. So far I've used 2 chips and am finishing up a module using another 2. The last 2 nights were spent doing some troubleshooting.
One of the greatest challenges has been installing all these cheap banana jacks. They always would come loose, so I'm using thread lock in hopes that it will keep them secure.
Joined: Jun 11, 2010 Posts: 116 Location: Northampton, UK
Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:59 am Post subject:
Captain Biscuits wrote:
Mine have just been couriered over from New Jersey and have made it to London. Just a few more days and I should have 4 genuine lucky bags of my very own. If anyone in the UK wants a bag I will have a couple spare.
My two spare bags have been snapped up - hope you're happy with them guys!
Electronics Goldmine sent 3 bags of 4000 chips but bag 4 had a 20 pin 4256 chip, an 8 pin 6772 chip, some 8 pin 7660 chips - some really weird stuff along with 15 4000 chips. Not sure what was going on there but I have 10 chips which I have no idea what to do with I'll put it down to experience and try to concentrate on the 25 chips in bag 2 - the bag which the toss of a coin allocated to me.
I just finished my CMOS sound machine using 6 of the chips from my Electronic Goldmine assortment. Here is a photo below. I'll post details on each of the chips and circuits in a separate thread.
cmos lunetta.JPG
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Joined: May 18, 2010 Posts: 308 Location: Oak Park, IL
Audio files: 5
Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:51 am Post subject:
Really nice set of chips! 4029 is a cool one. the 4019 and 4512 will be very effective in mixing up the outs from your NAND and OR gates. The 4011 and 4001 can be your oscillator sources....I do go on.
Have fun ! Lots of cool sounds to be had with that assortment.
Joined: May 18, 2010 Posts: 308 Location: Oak Park, IL
Audio files: 5
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:55 am Post subject:
I incorporated a few of the kit's ics into my main lunetta due to time constraints and some back issues which have slowed me down a tad. Here's my first track that utilizes the 4512 ic as well as the 4040. Essentially, the 4040 provides the inputs for the 4512 and a 40106 for 3 different oscillators for the ABC controllers on the 4512.
Some delay from my modded Danelectro BLT Slap Echo and mic input from my PWM ala Tim Escobedo were used. Track was recorded with no edits other than fade in and out in audacity.
If one of the goals of this thread was to get us building and sharing our work; mission accomplished . The 4512 is my new "go to" chip that I am having a blast patching around.
Joined: Oct 13, 2007 Posts: 6221 Location: near Austin, Tx, USA
Audio files: 267
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:40 am Post subject:
Hey wait a minute! I got sucked into the virtual world of Second Life for a long time and I come back to this thread and discover that I have not missed the contest deadline! Wow, I will try to finish my design today.
Actually I'm not too happy with the chopped up glued together miniaturized breadboard mess of a thing that I made before, now that I think of it in review. The primary concern is that it is quite light on the logic chips so the sequence will be less than satisfactory. So what I will do is wire it up from scratch on my large breadboard with lots-o'-room. I'll report back later folks.
Les _________________ "Let's make noise for peace." - Kijjaz
Joined: Oct 13, 2007 Posts: 6221 Location: near Austin, Tx, USA
Audio files: 267
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:21 pm Post subject:
Wow Draal, I really enjoyed that tune - not your usual squareish Lunetta tone for sure, though all sounds are good if you can appreciate them.
Well dang, i built an analog CMOS Boolean Sequencer trio and it made mush shounds, terrible! dronish blah, i'm not knoking drones but this isn't even a drone, it's more like the sound of a tire going down the highway, not a drone but a moan. LoL. I'm ripping it up and retrying.
By the way, when is the deadline? Did I miss it? If I did, I don't care, having too much fun with this. You know me...
Les _________________ "Let's make noise for peace." - Kijjaz
Joined: Oct 13, 2007 Posts: 6221 Location: near Austin, Tx, USA
Audio files: 267
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:27 am Post subject:
RF wrote:
Inventor wrote:
...mush shounds, terrible! dronish blah,.... more like the sound of a tire going down the highway, not a drone but a moan.
Les
Some of us recalcitrant deviants might have liked that....
I only wish I had that much deviance in me, lol. I'm going for something more mainstream, more "songish" if you will. Yeah, almost all sounds are good though. There is a recording, just no time to chop it up into samples.
Oh, getting good results now, tell y'all all about it soon.
Les _________________ "Let's make noise for peace." - Kijjaz
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