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Kassen
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:

If someone doesn’t already do a good digital BBD emulation, it is probably due to the market, not technical issues.


There are some good ones, I just still hear the difference, much like others still hear the diffference between a real and a emulated korg or moog.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, I'm sure you hear a difference. There will be differences, but I don't think the cause is primarily the internal ICs, but rather the designers choices. Not all BBDs sound the same either. Moogs don't sound like Buchlas, but it's not because of the chips, it's because of the circuit design.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

O.K.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

In many cases the most obvious difference between a something like the Korg Legacy Collection MS 20 and a real MS 20 will be the way it is actually used/played. That makes a huge difference.
Anyone who has owned a few MS 20s and some other of the MS products will also know that individual differences could at times be audible. None of the MS 20s sounded exactly the same.
The emulation products are also far less noisy. This does of course also affect how it is used. Troublesome parameters that really didn´t cut it due to noise in the circuitry will be quite useable in an emulation. This means that many of the emulated synths are being patched outside the original useable parameter range. Of course this will sound different.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Terry Furber, of Orbital Decay, has lots of vintage analog synths. We discuss the issues of digital emulation quite a bit. There is much more to it than the sound; there is an entire gestalt (for lack of a better word) to every instrument or piece of gear.

acoustic musicians know this; some instruments made in the same factory at the same time with the same materials sound better then others. For example, I live very near the Martin guitar company. There are some legendary Martins that were made during the WW-II years. All over the world, these are considered some of the best Martins ever made because they used some special woods. When we moved here and met some of the old-timers that worked at the factory, we learned the real reason these guitars were so good. During the war, lots of men workers went into the service. Many jobs were taken over temporarily by women. Apparently, these women turned out to be outstanding craftsmen (craftspersons).

To the outside world, these guitars seemed better than those made just before and just after the war. So people being human beings made up a reason - must be the wood. It seems logical and it becames a fact (at least it was believed to be a fact). To be sure, the wood can make a big difference, but in this case it was the craftsmanship.

I think many of the discussions we have about analog vs. digital, tubes vs. solid-state, BBD vs. RAM, etc. are somehow counterproductive because they are uni-dimensional discussions of a multi-dimensional topic.

I think Rob, at his talk on analog circuit emulation techniques at electro-music 2005 made that point superbly. He likes the sounds of some tape delay echo devices. He didn't jump to the conclusion that tape sounds better than digital; instead he thought carefully about it and concluded that he likes the particular distortion and saturation characteristics of tape. (Turns out that saturation is much more important than many of us thought). Once he identified the characteristics of the sound that were desirable, he built a very effective emulation using the G2. Now, thanks to his analysis, any good designer could build a very good sounding delay/echo unit with another technology.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I used to do 35 mm film editing way back in the early 80s. The editing table also handled sound modules. The audio tapes were pretty much the same size as the movie reel. The tape had a thick and wonderful magnetic coating. The sound quality was pretty cool all things considered. It would handle saturation quite well and the signal could get really hot.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

As I said, Rob figures this saturation characteristic is responsible for the nice sound quality of tape. If you make sure your digital circuits never saturate (or should I say never saturate in the same manner as tape), you get this same desirable sound quality. Of course, the hiss, wow and flutter, and noise of tape are best left as historical artifacts.

He also understands the characteristic warm sound of analog synths vs. the perceived cold sound of digital ones, but he hasn't published that yet, as far as I know, and I won't spill the beans. Of course, he has come up with an emulation that provides this characteristic analog sound.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've gotta say Mosc, I can't wait till the lecture notes/audio streams are posted from EM2005. It sounds really interesting.

Also, you can't ignore the fact that some styles of music benefit greatly from the dirtiness of noisy malfunctioning synths/samplers/effects. Where would Boards of Canada be today if it weren't for tape flutter/wow? In fact, where would I be today if it weren't for my Evolver's demonic distortion? Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

by feeding the delay output into a mixer channel and then using an aux to send the returned delay back to the delay and back to the mixer again, you can get wonderul feedback based primarily on self-noise..

there is no sound quite like it..i love it heheh

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mosc, I wish my world were as simple as yours.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Please, we can take this further...?

Anyone heard this one? Machine Head

I have used tape gear extensively. The list includes Ferrograph, Akai, Sony, Phillips, Revox and Tandberg gear and the large reel to reel multitracks from Otari and Tascam. I have also used Agfa Perfotape for 35mm film editing tables ( Steinberg ). And I learned to love and hate the Roland tape echo devices. However, I don´t know much about the 1/4 inch and cassette multitracks from Tascam and Fostex.

As for analog warmth, I am still trying to decide on that one. The way I see this there is not one singular component that constitutes the analog warmth thingie. One guy´s analog warmth is clearly not another guy´s analog warmth. Uh.. no pun intended.. Shocked

We can look at this systemically in the sense that an "old" studio would send the signals all over the place and a lot of circuits would affect the sound. Clearly a lot of devices thought to be "transparent" at the time weren´t.
In an analog studio absolutely every solid state / opamp device would colour the sound. Gain/impedance issues would also colour the sound as well as bad cables ( There were some really bad cables out there back then ). Tape would colour the sound, but the actual tape recording and playback system ( heads, preamps, bias etc..) did have far more individual variations between models and designs. It is fairly correct to claim that there truly weren´t one specific and unique sound of tape back then.
Certain studios would often exhibit extremely weird characteristics. This could be due to the signal routing, faulty components somewhere in the signal chain, weird gain/impedance issues and such. I remember one experience when I discovered that the stereo master feed to the master 2 track suddenly added a dynamic lowpass filtering behaviour. This had nothing to do with the tape recorder. This was subtle, but easily recognized when I told the guys what to listen for. When the signal got more loud/dense.. the circuitry reduced treble gain and added a peak/"thickness" in the range 150-800 hz. They spent months trying to figure that out. Today I guess this would be called analog warmth, but we considered this to be uncool.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I did mention gain/impedance issues in my previous post. Clearly the old pros would sort that out? Well, some did, but most studios would see such problems anyway and many such issues weren´t even discovered.

One quite common problem was the tape returns from the multitrack. I have seen the weirdest mismatches and these guys were actually making recordings that got released on vinyl. It didn´t always sound "bad", but clearly the "something" happened to the sound and from a technical viewpoint ( and do add some tranquilizers ) the signal that went into the final mix on the console was hardly optimal. At times also muted send busses on the consoles would affect the sound. I remember once when disconnecting some of the send return chains that were actually muted on the console would bring the mids back. The electrical characteristics of the whole console had been affected by having chains connected that supposedly should´t have had any influence on the very signal because the channels busses had been muted. There were of course no magic involved.

My point is that I don´t think the term analog warmth makes much sense unless we define specifically what we are talking about here. I am looking forward to seeing Rob´s work published. I am very sure he can add some insights on some of these issues.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Please, we can take this further...?


Of cource we can, but the discussion was drifting towards a direction where I realy don´t want to go. I´m quite facinated by these primitive constructions and their sound and from that perspective emulating them or at least trying to and seeing what problems we run into is very facinating and worthwhile, especially if implemented with the intention of basing entirely new effects on them, much like the physical modeling of existing instruments is quite boring to emulating imaginary ones. However, the discussion was drifting in a direction where I realy don´t want to go; I´ve discussed analogue v.s. digital enough to know it´s like debating wether or not communism is preferable to modern cinema.

There are a lot of tremendously complex phenomena that interact in very, very complex ways and that affect these things quite subtily yet profoundly and all build to give different systems their characteristic sound. Frankly I think there are some blanket statements being made in the past few posts that ignore both the complexity of the question on a technological level and flat out deny what I see as one of the most interesting sides to electronic music; being the interaction between personal aesthetics of individual artists and the options provided by methods and speciffic implementations of them, both those intended by the designer and the glitches and failures of those.

If we are quoting Rob like scripture; he also said that he believes the bitrate of digital systems hardly matters at all for sound quality below 4gigahertz (I think) for which there was some proof that seemed to momentarily escape him. He also keeps multiple tape echos around, intentionally painstakingly preserved in various states to *preserve* their wow, flutter, and noise in a state representative for certain eras and usefull for certain aplications. He´s also building a 8 track tape loop machine. As impressively ellegant as his method is; it´s not the last word on this by a long strech, nor did he claim this.

I never said at all I felt that it that the I.C. in BBD´s was the only signifficant influence on the sound, read back my posts and you´ll see I paid a lot of attention to the interaction of the different components, even if I did admittedly gloss over some sides of this in the interest of readability.

I´ll get back to some or all of these things later today because there is quite a bit of realy interesting stuff going on but right now I need to direct my attention to more mundane matters. In the meantime I urge everybody who feels the need inescapable to call me "negative" to by all means do so.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
However, the discussion was drifting in a direction where I realy don´t want to go; I´ve discussed analogue v.s. digital enough to know it´s like debating wether or not communism is preferable to modern cinema.


Personally I think learning about how things work and how to use this knowledge in order to make interesting sounds is the main point anyway.

I see the "my neve is more neve that your neve" and the "go buy an SSL unless you wanna get kicked off this board" threads all over the net. I am not a big fan of those discussions.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:

If someone doesn’t already do a good digital BBD emulation, it is probably due to the market, not technical issues.


Here's one, and it's not half bad. (But still sounds a bit digital...)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It is for the reasons you mentioned Elektro80 that I'm glad I have a few bits of analogue gear in the studio, simply because they have so much character - they affect the sound in a way not possible with anything else. I like that uniqueness, and I like the fact that only one piece of gear can get give me a certain sound.

I am of the opinion that alot of the older analogue stuff sounds so nice because the engineers that built the equipment had to spend so much time working around the issues of the technology to get a nice sound. They poured a huge amount of time getting the circuits right, hand picking components for different sections etc. With digital, instead of working with something already faulty and working around these faults, you start with a clean slate of perfect waveforms, filters, delays etc. and you introduce little bits here and there to give the sound it's character. But even then, most of the bigger companies don't try and give their synths/effects character, they just try and get the cleanest highest audio bandwidth they can, with the least amount of distortion introduced by filters, mixers etc. They go on about 24bit/96k, 32-bit floating point mixing etc.

Don't get me wrong, there are certainly still people and companies out there that are producing digital equipment/software that has oodles of character. There's definitely equipment and software that I have that I really like because it gives/produces audio of a certain quality.

There's also the fact that music is art, and like physical artwork such as paintings, sculptures and the like the tools of the trade never get superceeded by anything else, new tools just enable variations on the artform not able to be discovered otherwise. There are many forms of hybrid artwork out there, fusing the new with the old with the new. I don't see why it should be different with music. To an outsider like me, digital art and physical art are both valid forms of expression, and I don't see the point of arguments over which is better or worse. Some will obviously prefer working with a paintbrush, others prefer being able to draw exact lines in a paint program. I don't see the point of looking down my nose at people who prefer to use a paintbrush because they like the organic quality of it rather than staying with the times and opting for the preciseness of digital. (I'm not trying to target people on this forum with this statement, just talking of my experience in general)
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, let's try this aproach;

BBD´s and tape loop suck at delaying sound. They are are somplete failure, overtaken by modern technology, much like the tb303 sucks at emulating a bass guitar and and can´t compete with modern sample libraries.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Ok, let's try this aproach;

BBD´s and tape loop suck at delaying sound. They are are somplete failure, overtaken by modern technology, much like the tb303 sucks at emulating a bass guitar and and can´t compete with modern sample libraries.


I don´t disagree.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

However, these devices can still be found to be very useful.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Afro88 wrote:
hat music is art, and like physical artwork such as paintings, sculptures and the like the tools of the trade never get superceeded by anything else, new tools just enable variations on the artform not able to be discovered otherwise. There are many forms of hybrid artwork out there, fusing the new with the old with the new. I don't see why it should be different with music. To an outsider like me, digital art and physical art are both valid forms of expression, and I don't see the point of arguments over which is better or worse. Some will obviously prefer working with a paintbrush, others prefer being able to draw exact lines in a paint program. I don't see the point of looking down my nose at people who prefer to use a paintbrush because they like the organic quality of it rather than staying with the times and opting for the preciseness of digital. (I'm not trying to target people on this forum with this statement, just talking of my experience in general)


I don´t disagree.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Afro88 wrote:
With digital, instead of working with something already faulty and working around these faults, you start with a clean slate of perfect waveforms, filters, delays etc. and you introduce little bits here and there to give the sound it's character. But even then, most of the bigger companies don't try and give their synths/effects character, they just try and get the cleanest highest audio bandwidth they can, with the least amount of distortion introduced by filters, mixers etc. They go on about 24bit/96k, 32-bit floating point mixing etc.


Digital recording technology really needs some improvements. This is far from perfect today.

I think trying to make the actual recording and editing tools as "transparent" as possible is a very good philosophy.

As for character, I think companies like GForce, NI, AAS and many others are doing a great job. The Universal UAD-1 DSP card and plugin suite is quite excellent too.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sorry, forgot to post the link...

http://www.audiodamage.com/l33t/product_info.php?cPath=1&products_id=2

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
However, these devices can still be found to be very useful.


....which would be why I have a stack of them. My post was meant with a heavy dose of sarcasm, you see, that crappy 303 box is quite popular still and commands rather inflated prices.......

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Why,

I happen to own the original that plugin is based on, albeit in the silver edition. This plugin is more expensive then the original should be; it´s a pritty crappy cheap box, it´s fun but it´s my least favourite of my bucket brigade delays. Much better imho would be the "echo tank" which is a vst that´s free and is based on my favourite hardware delay; the DM-100 (and includes a extra filter and lfo´s and other stuff.)

http://device.antisound.net/?section=sig_mod
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

At 0.00$ plus taxes it' hard to beat...

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The TB 303 Bassline wasn´t really exactly great when it was new. I remember it all too well. However it was dirt cheap. Well, what do I know. Different taste in sounds I guess. A lot of people have found it to be awesome.
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