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Kassen
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
The TB 303 Bassline wasn´t really exactly great when it was new. I remember it all too well. However it was dirt cheap. Well, what do I know. Different taste in sounds I guess. A lot of people have found it to be awesome.


Same here, but the fact stands that though it´s not at all good for what it was meant for it spawned a whole style all by itself and many people apreceate it for what it does and don´t realy care that it sounds nothing like a real bass.

Similarly the 303 was often emulated digitally but you can always tell the difference. Well, I can.

I´m aproaching BBD´s in a similar way; Mosc is right in that you can delay sound in a much cleaner, more defined and technologically more advanced way with a off the shelf computer, but I don´t realy care. I don´t need to delay sound that badly, I need the characteristcs of a bbd and I´ll take the delay that comes with it.

Similarly; tape to me is not about recording as neutrally as possible, if I wanted to do that (and I sometimes do) I´d set up the soundcard to do 24 bits, etc. Tape to me is about the way it affects the sound.

The role of these things changed. When modern technology elimintated their nesecity they became a option, their use a concious choice, a matter of expression. People still use black&white photography, just because colour is more advanced technologically and more realistc does not mean it´s better. What is best depends on what you need in the situation you are in. The emulated ms10 is only preferable if you want those previously unstable connections to be stable; on many occasions instability may actually be prefered; noise is no longer a problem, noise is a available choice.

Silence and transparncie are much easier to acomplish then getting the exact type of noise you need.

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paul e.



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:

Silence and transparncy are much easier to acomplish then getting the exact type of noise you need.


fully agreed...

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Silence and transparncie are much easier to acomplish then getting the exact type of noise you need.


This has something to do with the difference between music and engineering.

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, indeed, but that holds true for this whole discussion.

For electronic music I often wonder exactly where that difference is and wether it exists at all. The choice for a 303 instead of a "real" bass or a BBD instead of a digital delay or the other way around could be argued to be musical choices, similar to picking A minor over C major.

It also has a lot to do with controll. For example, I use both my Dm-!00 and that Echotank vst. Sometimes I´ll dub up a line through the hardware and record it back, tweaking the knobs live and improvised, sometimes tight, absolute, timing is needed and I´ll pick the vst emulation for enhanced predictability and repeatable results.

Still, I feel that using engineering to get the right intonation in background hiss is every bit as valid as using proper breathing techniques to get the right timbre out of a alt sax.

Just like a sax player wil pick or make the right reed for a piece so I will pick the right delay. I very much agree with the concept that the whole experience of a certain machine, including how it apears and perhaps even the emotional attachement to something rare and old will influence how you see it, but I think that seeing consonant, transparent and noiseless as "better" is realy a stage we left behind in the history of music. I even think that the attachement to digital systems as capable of emulating everything we might need perfectly is something we need to leave behind. Just like A.I looked much easier to do then it turned out to be, so the real world turns out to be a lot more complex then I think we gave it credit for, it´s faults and imperfections a lot more apealing.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I even think that the attachement to digital systems as capable of emulating everything we might need perfectly is something we need to leave behind.


There is no monolithic we. Some people might prefer a solution that you personally think doesn't work. You have a valid opinion, but it is also valid to leave behind all of the old hardware and run 100% on software. In fact, in my life I've embraced many contradictory points of view.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Just like a sax player wil pick or make the right reed for a piece so I will pick the right delay. I very much agree with the concept that the whole experience of a certain machine, including how it apears and perhaps even the emotional attachement to something rare and old will influence how you see it, but I think that seeing consonant, transparent and noiseless as "better" is realy a stage we left behind in the history of music. I even think that the attachement to digital systems as capable of emulating everything we might need perfectly is something we need to leave behind. Just like A.I looked much easier to do then it turned out to be, so the real world turns out to be a lot more complex then I think we gave it credit for, it´s faults and imperfections a lot more apealing.


I agree with this completely. Well said.

Even if we can emulate the sound of an instrument such as the 303 perfectly (and IMO the 303 at www.audiorealism.se/products.htm is spot on), it's still not the same, simply because you're still using a mouse/whatever controller you own to program it. There's a huge difference between having the little plastic box right in front of you and seeing it on a screen, pressing one button at a time with a mouse. It's the same with computer games - even with the most realistic game, there's a massive difference between clicking your mouse to fire a gun, and having a gun right there in your hand and shooting it.

People forget that we have more than 2 senses. The feel of the knobs on an instrument shape the cutoff patterns I tweak. The smell of the instrument also puts me in a certain mindspace for tweaking the instrument. Smell has an interesting association with memory - some smells make us remember times from long ago, others remind us of something we can't remember. My DX7's power supply is a little faulty and smells burnt, and one of the keys is visibly broken. This puts me in a certain frame of mind when programming it - I'm much more likely to program some strange, faulty sounding effect than another variation of the classic EP patch.

edit: But, plugins do have their place, and in many cases I embrace plugins (such as the Reaktor library), simply because it can do things my hardware can't, or it can do things my hardware can but without having to patch it. When I need a certain sound I can dial it up in a matter of seconds and see if that instrument/effect works. There are many more benefits that I can't be bothered going into now, and I'm not trying to say I think one is better than the other, just that even when an emulation is perfect, it's still missing everything physical which is also a major contributing factor in the way we play and program an instrument/effect. Each have their place, and the sooner people stop trying to singlemindedly adopt one over the other the better (IMO).
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I even think that the attachement to digital systems as capable of emulating everything we might need perfectly is something we need to leave behind.


That would apply to other things than music too. I agree with Howard re that we thingie, but Kassen makes an obvious point here that I guess a lot of us would tend agree with anyway.


I do however read this as less about the monolithic we, rather as an insight regarding our belief in the promise of machines. This might possibly be a new thread coming up.

Another matter is that we are the creators of the machines. If we apply that angle on this statement, we are of course back to the monolithic we. Whatever we can understand and imagine, we can build. However, I realise that some devices cannot be built, like some of the Star Trek devices and such, but interestingly enough, the impossible machines have already become a part of our culture too.

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Kassen wrote:
I even think that the attachement to digital systems as capable of emulating everything we might need perfectly is something we need to leave behind.


There is no monolithic we. Some people might prefer a solution that you personally think doesn't work. You have a valid opinion, but it is also valid to leave behind all of the old hardware and run 100% on software. In fact, in my life I've embraced many contradictory points of view.


Quite right and I admit my phrasing was bad.

I meant "we" in a abstract sense of "electronic musicians" and meant to leave room for this. I used it in the same sense in the political discussions, for example I might write about Dutch television; [b]we[b] like it when people show emotions, preferably cry, while I myself don´t watch such shows.

The phrasing here could stand clarification, but I think you can see what I mean; for example for a time the then new digital systems were deemed to sound much better then anything else and samples were especially asumed to be indistinguishable from real instruments while when we now look back on the gear from that era it mostly apeals to triphop producers who like the grunge. The DX7 was asumed to be able to synthesise any instrument or sound..... but few people actually programed it.

"We" was meant to refer to the general culture and leave room for individual disagreement, far from being monolithic I often aplaud such disagreement, but the tendencies are interesting.

[edit]
Looking back on this very sentence; I did start it with the words "I even think" to indicate this is a personally held opinion, not a fact, and the word "even" should indicate that I too think it´s going quite far.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
I do however read this as less about the monolithic we, rather as an insight regarding our belief in the promise of machines. This might possibly be a new thread coming up.


Yeah, it´s shorthand in a way.

Quote:
Another matter is that we are the creators of the machines.


Indeed, and I think that stays true if most of "us" never create a single one. To have a "we" in that sentence being a part of the demand is enough, well, to me it is.

Quote:

If we apply that angle on this statement, we are of course back to the monolithic we. Whatever we can understand and imagine, we can build. However, I realise that some devices cannot be built, like some of the Star Trek devices and such, but interestingly enough, the impossible machines have already become a part of our culture too.


Excelent point and it extends so far that many of "us" believe the Startrek ones to be possible (but simply not available yet)! To me that is akin to "our" formerly held believe that cd quality was the best quality possible and as much as anybody needed. If you see or hear something often enough you´ll begin to believe in it. Now "we" have become disilusioned (to a certain extend) with cd quality and serious pros will often use 24 bits, 96Khz for as long as possible.

I was also speaking of the changes brought by such factors as Cage and Musique Concrete, I think those people opened the way for musical styles like industrial and through a chain reaction this made way for the low-fi timbres in such popular styles as triphop and the now unbelievably fashionable R&B. A few decades ago the public wouldn´t have been nearly as accepting of noises used as instruments while now you can hear that being done in every clothing store in the "civilised", rich west.

I should perhaps have noted that there are always exceptions; noise was being made before BBD´s even came on the market and there still are people who only like music based on consonant, natural instruments, that is of cource perfectly fine, but I do think that general culture has changed and that this has changed the way general culture looks at the sounds and artifacts of BBD, tape echos and the unstable sides of the ms-10. I think that this is more or less known and accepted.

Where my own speculation could be argued to start is that I suspect that high quality digital systems (and I love those as much as everybody, probably more then most) made the old noise boxes into a option instead of a limitation and so, in a way, paved the way for their creative use. I mentioned this before in other threads, I think it´s a important point.

I realy didn´t mean to be offensive or dogmatic, but if I have to note that exceptions are valid too and that it´s a delightfull thing that not everybody follows the large cultural trends at every phrase then my posts will become even longer and even harder to read....

The main contrast as I see this thread is that Mosc noted that modern digital systems are much better at time shifting sounds and that I brought up that BBD´s make wonderfull noises; there is no disagreement there at all, I think. Mosc is provably right, my note is a matter of taste that anybody can discard if he wants to; it was mainly aimed at Paul and other fans of BBD´s such as Afro. I don´t think anybody seriously thinks Paul and me think BBD´s sounds transparent, that´s simply not the point.

What also affects this (mainly on ""my" side of the delay") is that for some reason, perhaps as a counterreaction to the veritable ocean of pre-packaged synthetic products "we" are bombarded with, "old" and "physical" have become (to many....) indications of "real-ness". I see this happening a lot; in my own scene early disco is somehow preceived to be more "real" then new material. This is a illusion, but it´s a widely held one and one I´m affected by too. I think this certainly affects the preceived position BBD´s (amongst other things like electric pianos and speak&spells) have gotten in.


Now, I think it´s very regretable that Mosc, whom I´d never want to offend, took my phrasing in a wrong way, but I think it´s quite good and interesting to spend some time and attention on these factors.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen, I'm not in disagreement with you.

You are right about the illusion of the superiority of old technology and techniques. The same illusion exists about the newest technology. My point is all this is not to focus on the technology but on the sounds and the music.

BTW, taking ones time to be sure the phrasing is as precise as possible doesn't make one's writing more difficult to read, it makes it easier and less prone to misunderstanding.

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
You are right about the illusion of the superiority of old technology and techniques. The same illusion exists about the newest technology. My point is all this is not to focus on the technology but on the sounds and the music.


That is a good additude overall but not realy that suitable IMHO when the topic itself is based on a speciffic type of gear. The topic here simply was (is?) bucket brigades, it´s sectioned properly too under "instruments and equipment". If it were "delay use" sectioned under "dub" in a section on "musical styles" it would be a different matter. I maintain that it´s entirely apropriate to discuss the way these things function and some of the hardships one faces if one wants to emulate them. As long as the afficianados like what is more commonly seen as faults I don´t think it´s at all important that these boxes are outdated, at least not to them. Other topics could be made on digital delays and their speciffic advantages and uses, I´d be delighted to discuss those too. I would also be open for discussion on aplications of delays in general either compositionally or as a tool in sound-design.

All of this site is structured hyrarchically around the equipment (mainly) and techniques (to a lesser degree) with the exception of the sections on some artists. This is fine with me since I experience that as more open-ended then structuring it around styles but at this moment I do think it´s slightly unfair to tell me to focus on the music instead of on the gear in a section on equipment.

Quote:

BTW, taking ones time to be sure the phrasing is as precise as possible doesn't make one's writing more difficult to read, it makes it easier and less prone to misunderstanding.


I thought "we" as a word was clear (and non-monolithic) enough when typing that post because it´s commonly used to refer to culture as a whole, particularly as I sprinkled the whole post with phrases like "I think" and so on. It´s (provably) not possible to make expressions in natural languages un-ambiguous and making them as precise as possible *will* make sentences realy, realy long. My posts above already use a lot of quotes and brackets and so on to avoid a repetion of the ""we" situation". Many people got what I meant and I apologised to those that didn´t, beyond that you can´t blame the problems of natural languages on me, or so I feel.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

when it comes to the use of delays..and words..less is more hehe
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