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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
g2ools-0.91 nm1 to g2 converter
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3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

an udate to the lfo question..the slave lfos in the nm1 are not phasesynced thru the slave connection... so its just frequencie related information that give the convienience that you only have to set the base frequencie at one lfo and minimizes cable connections... a thing that dont matters for a conversion because its only ment to speed up patching.
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qfingers



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
I dont find the subpwmleadpatch on the clavia side..so cant compare what its supposed to sound..it seems that internal levels are to high..
when you want a feedback on a specific patch conversion it would be good to post the NM1 source aswell.
Its probably helpfull to see how you can get them to sound the same manualy.


It was buried. Anyways, here it is...

Quote:

regarding the lfo master slave connection...its in most cases enough to use various lfos in freerun but on the same frequencie settings..

This can be easy applied when the lfos are set to the same freq and a constant module in bipolar seting is aplied to the rate input of the pseudo slave modules... one tick up equals than 1 semitone up what is the same as the Nm1 slave modules are doing... its just semitone steps nothing funky.

So lfo A and a constant module in bipolar is the cheapest way to replace one slave lfo... Its however memory consuming in relation to the same module in the NM1... patches that use excessiv amounts of slave lfos will have problems...but many can easily be converted this way


Why bother with a constant module? Can the rate just be calculated based on the ratio and the Master? What happens when the rate input is used? Does it rate parameter and rate input just get added together? Can you set the rate parameter to zero?

The only problem other I see is if the rate is dynamically changed on the master from another Lfo. How about the same scheme I used with the Osc's Mst/Slv by using a MasterOsc even though the parameter is specified in Hz, it's value could be used. It also can be modulated.


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blue hell
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

qfingers wrote:
It was buried. Anyways, here it is...


Some details I noticed about the conversion of that patch :

- NM filter D is a 12 dB flter, the G2 translaton uses the multimode filter set to 6 dB

- NM phaser has a builtin LFO that is able to modulate the cetral frequency, it is translated to an added LFO that does feedback modultation (and that's what makes it sound so funky ! Smile

- I'm a bit worried about the keyboard input module translation, but can't directly point to the right spot. the NM's KbdPatch module could mostly be replaced with the G2's MonoKey module - except for the release velocity. But it would have the correct gate behaviour then I think.

- Amplifier -> level amplifier has a scaling problem, see attachment for correct midi value to readout translations.

(the file lev-scaling-xlat.txt got lost)

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Last edited by blue hell on Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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qfingers



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
- NM filter D is a 12 dB flter, the G2 translaton uses the multimode filter set to 6 dB


I'll change it to 12.

Quote:
- NM phaser has a builtin LFO that is able to modulate the cetral frequency, it is translated to an added LFO that does feedback modultation (and that's what makes it sound so funky ! Smile


I move the LFO to modulate the center frequency. It's easy to do.

Quote:
- I'm a bit worried about the keyboard input module translation, but can't directly point to the right spot. the NM's KbdPatch module could mostly be replaced with the G2's MonoKey module - except for the release velocity. But it would have the correct gate behaviour then I think.


I didn't notice that one. I'll use that module instead. When you are dealing with over 100 modules, things get overlooked. Will the vel output have the release velocity when the gate goes low? My logic might have been wrong for the other setup, but this one requires less, even if I have to add handling release velocity similar my first attempt.

Quote:
- Amplifier -> level amplifier has a scaling problem, see attachment for correct midi value to readout translations.


I'll update the amplifier with correct scaling.

Cool!!! Every little fix like this gets the converted patches a little closer. I'll probably get another version out later tonight (it's 7:30pm here) or tomorrow sometime. I would like to take a shot at the knobs and morphs. I'm going to make the above changes first, then if I'm successful with the knobs stuff, I release both.

q
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
The NM's KbdPatch module could mostly be replaced with the G2's MonoKey module - except for the release velocity. But it would have the correct gate behaviour then I think.


As at 1.40, there is still a bug with the G2 monokey module, the vel output goes dead when switched to 'low' mode.
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3phase



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

qfingers wrote:
Why bother with a constant module? Can the rate just be calculated based on the ratio and the Master?


Problem is that the initial range of lfo´s´don't goes as much up as a slave lfo can do...and many patches use this opportunity of slave lfo´s´
they can be up to a high audio range..

to allow an lfo to do high pitches you need to add a constant value to the pitch mod input...

Try with the the G2 lfos..they can go much higher with a constant value applied...

However,.there are patches that can be done within the initial lfo ranges..
but i guess its easier for your program to just emulate the slave lfo instead having to judge about conditions...

but if you choose conditions..the normal envelope range is about 400 hz in the max....while with a constant module, they can go over 5 octaves above...
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

qfingers wrote:
Will the vel output have the release velocity when the gate goes low?


Yeah, I think velocity refers to the last velocity received within that scope (the voice, the patch, whatever). If it didn't then note-off signals would also make velocity jump which would probably glitch and loads of S&H would be needed all the time.

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qfingers



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Version bump to 0.6. Check original post for changes.

I didn't incorporate knobs yet because it requires a major change to all the converter objects. I was treating parameters differently then inputs and outputs. The module converter inputs and outputs have an array that is indexed the exact same as the NM1 modules. I didn't do the same for parameters and in order to handle knobs, parameters need to be indexes the same way. I'm starting on it now.

Please post tweaks, bug reports, and sample patches (if necessary).

Thanks,
q
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monobass



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've not had a chance to try this yet but I'd like to add my thanks for its existence!

I sold my NM1 recently.. so will be exploring this with interest Smile

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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi qfingers.

I didn't use it also, but I'll will visit dear Blue Hell in the near future who is much better in these kind of things then I am.

Just a remark.
If it is possible to create a converter for DX7 > G2, could likewise be created to the NordLead2 > G2?

It was just a thought...

Wout
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blue hell
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
I'll will visit dear Blue Hell in the near future


Good I did some vacuum cleaning today Very Happy

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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qfingers



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
Hi qfingers.

I didn't use it also, but I'll will visit dear Blue Hell in the near future who is much better in these kind of things then I am.

Just a remark.
If it is possible to create a converter for DX7 > G2, could likewise be created to the NordLead2 > G2?

It was just a thought...

Wout


Yes, Yes, and more Yes. My hope is to either create or help create a DX7 converter, NordLead2 converter, NordLead3 converter, Evolver convert, Access Virus converter, Waldorf Micro-Q converter, Novation SuperNova converter, KORG MS2000 converter and anything else. Basically it usually comes down to parsing the MIDI sysex messages, building the model/blocks of the model, then doing a parameter convertion. Alot of this requires someone with the model we are converting from. An analysis of parameter settings to time, frequency, modulation index and mapping them to the known G2's time, frequency, and modulation indexes. It requires some effort but I think worth it because the G2 is a general purpose synth that IMHO can model any of the other synths out there.

As for the DX7, because the modules are there already, parsing sysex, building a default DX7 patch, and setting the parameters from the sysex because it's an exact parameter to parameter match. If there is documentation on DX7 sysex format, it's something that could be done relatively quickly. I think the DX7 has some LFO settings that would need more looking into though. If someone wants to take on the project using the g2ools python modules, I'll be happy to help. Otherwise, it will be awhile before I'm finished with NM1 to G2 converter. I don't want to start another project until this one is more mature.

q
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jksuperstar



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, considering the DX7 conversion has already been done, it should be "easy" to translate into the g2ools for uniformity.

See Axiom's thread:
http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=dx7&t=10181
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qfingers



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jksuperstar wrote:
Well, considering the DX7 conversion has already been done, it should be "easy" to translate into the g2ools for uniformity.

See Axiom's thread:
http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=dx7&t=10181


If it's done, why are people asking? Isn't this tool good enough?

q
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blue hell
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

qfingers wrote:

If it's done, why are people asking? Isn't this tool good enough?


Apart from that there already is a large amount of DX7 patches made available as NM Classic patches that automatically will be in the project already, See : http://nm-archives.electro-music.com/010_NordModular/011_Patches/FM_for_Xmas/

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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qfingers



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I see, it just sends MIDI cc's. It's not a converter in the sense that nm2g2 is. To do a bulk convertion would be painful. I get it now. By the way, I did a NordLead2 to Korg MOSS converter. I've got the sources around somewhere, the sysex parser of the NordLead2 could be useful for this type of thing. I'll try and track it down.

q
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I posted some time ago a kind of NordLead2 template, which I had to translate the values by hand. The unison isn't right, though...
The LFO rates are troublesome too.

Wout
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3phase



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:01 am    Post subject: Formant Oscilator Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

An improoved version of Robs Formant Oscilator as replacement block for g2ools.

This one reacts on mod input similar to the NM1 version opposite to Robs basic patch that didnt had mod possibility...
And the sound is sharpened with an EQ module to get it sonically wright...


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3phase



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:27 am    Post subject: NM1 Overdrive and Saw behaviour Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Two little items...

The overdrive in the NM1 sounds different than the one in the G2...

This block is the closest match i could get.. sofar


Another thing that can be tested in this patch..

Saw in NM1 has opposite phase than in the G2... this matters sonical sometimes..for example in this patch where the overdrive just sounds different when the phase is changed...


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3phase



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:36 am    Post subject: SineBank Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just came along that g2ools is way off regarding translating the NM´s Sinebank...

I post 2 patches..a NM1 sinebank sound with internal Am feedback..
And the handmade conversion that sounds the same.

Problem is that the internal mixer of the sinebank behaves different than external ones... The internal distorts later..
I chosed as a quick and dirty fix to reduce levels from the NMs Sinebank mixer by 5 units on the G2 mixers and boosting with an ampmodule at the end to compensate..resulting in exactly the same sound...
Before doing a conversion table it would be probably better to see first if that is necessary in the end... In the moment it would be a big win allready if g2ools would translate the patch i posted here in a similar fashion as i patched it by hand...

for demonstration reasons i patched the full sinebank... maybe its not necessary to have all vcas there when no Am modulation is used..

Note that this big G2 version uses less resources than the NM1 version of the sine bank !... Its however a close to 20% module or block on booth machines...

The Sinebank is used quite regulary in the nm lib i... but in many patches its not used for 6 sines or for having AM on all partial oscilators...

maybe g2ools can scale the sinebank as needed??


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Axiom



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

qfingers wrote:
I see, it just sends MIDI cc's. It's not a converter in the sense that nm2g2 is. To do a bulk convertion would be painful. I get it now.


yup.. unfortunately i'm not a programmer and this was the only way i get to manage this "conversion"... If only I was able to do a library to read and write pch2 files in c# I think that a real converter can came out. The DX7 sysex file format is not so hard to manage.. but the problem, for me, is the g2 format.

Cheers,
Luca

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dorremifasol



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cool! I never tried that sinebank stuff but sounds great Razz

While I was making some sounds with it my G2 hung up (is it said like this?), It's been the first time :/ Not even the Master Level Know works, which is strange.

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qfingers



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:33 am    Post subject: Re: SineBank Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:

maybe g2ools can scale the sinebank as needed??


The initial version didn't but can be modified. It looks like I gotta alot of work to do. I'll attempt to apply these changes (The SineBank, FormantOsc, and Overdrive). There was a patch from the Nord Module Book (JClark) that I had problems that included 4 SineBank modules. Because it used the whole bank, it overloaded the vertical placement of the modules in the g2 editor. So I'm thinking of modifying the converter to insert a new column when SineBanks are used and build it in 2 columns so it doesn't overload the g2 editors height restriction. I'm only attaching the .pch file becuase the g2's is messed up. It works but several modules overlap on the editor.

I'm hoping to get another version out soon. Let's see how it goes.

q


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qfingers



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase's recommendations have been fantastic. He's worked really hard at getting me stuff to add/fix to the converter. Today, I've got alot of changes to make for the next release.

Here is the list:
Code:

- Finish MIDI cc's
- Finish Morphs
- Finally cut a py2exe version
- Update OSC when using Saw waveform to add an level converter
- Update Overdrive to 3phase's model
- Add column insert routine to be used for SineBank
- Update SineBank to 3phase's model, do it in 2 columns
- Update FormantOsc to 3phase's model
- Update PitchMod input based on 3phase's table to all PitchMod'd OSCs
- Update PWMod based on 3phase's recommendations
  - Calculate PW setting from NM1
    - NM1 Negitive PW: 2*abs(NM1PW)
    - NM1 Positive PW: 2*abs(NM1PW), add level converter on output
    - Add level converter on PWMod input because it's PW always > 50%
    - Possibly add Clipper on PWMod input to limit the PW to 1% and 99%


I'm going to try and get them finished ASAP. If I don't get some done, I may still release a new version today. If time permits I can get most of them done. I have knob convertion done. The biggie is the Morphs because the NM1 morphs are more generic then the G2's when it comes to using after touch and stuff like that. The change to module models requires some effort as well.

q
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3phase



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

qfingers wrote:
The biggie is the Morphs because the NM1 morphs are more generic then the G2's when it comes to using after touch and stuff like that. The change to module models requires some effort as well.

q



I just spend a day... thats nothing to the whole projekt...
I see that the control/morp assign question is a hard nut...
But its also something that can have its time because its usually something left to the personal user to assign the morhs... so personally as someone that likes to transfer own patches i would benefit from a complete translation..while most patches in the lib would do well without morph assigns...At least you would get an idea whats going on and just miss the variations.

However.. i am still waiting for 1:1 comparisons and anylyses of conversions, that will bring up probably many details, because i think its better to do that when g2ools has reached a state where it is supposed to handle all conditions somehow...

I tried yesterday to do some work on problems i had with manual conversions... But there are probably still some other missmatchings i havent thaugt about yet...

anybody has more ideas where NM1 to G2 incompatibilitys exsist that might be better investigated before the program gets to a detail question state?
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