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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
Fun way to do microtuning Updated to (v2.0)
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dasz



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:12 pm    Post subject:  Fun way to do microtuning Updated to (v2.0) Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello folks,

since we do not have microtuning built into the OS of the G2, here is my little attempt on making it easy.

And guess what, it uses my favorite module - the voltage sequencer.

The neat concept is that you detune using steps 1(C) .. 12 (B) on the sequencer (pages A1-A2), but the overall tuning depth (how far the detuning of all the notes will go) is done with the depth knob. I have added a further amp module to set the maximum depth - your tuning can get VERY crazy if you so desire.

Thanks to Jan Punter for the modulus patch. Jan, Rob, mosc, and others, let me know what you think. Oh, and this patch works with the G2 demo!

If someone can tune it in such a way that the sequencer value range covers +/-1 semitone, then post it here. That's what this community is about... sharing Smile

The whole idea is similar to a waveshaper. But I take the modulus of the notes played and warp them according to the sequencer steps. then I add the octave back into the equation.

If you find it useful, we may want to put it into the building blocks section.

Strange, this is not the kind of patch I would normally make, isn't it Confused

Have a nice day everybody!
/Dasz

ps.: Mosc, is there a way I could arrange the attachments in an arbitrary way (say post the patch first, then the jpg?)


IntenseImpromtuNAMMPerformance_DZ.JPG
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Just had to throw this pic in... it was a demo to remember (for me).
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IntenseImpromtuNAMMPerformance_DZ.JPG



MicroTuning_DZ.pch2
 Description:
Microtuning_DZ (thanks to Jan Punter for the modulus circuit)

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 Filename:  MicroTuning_DZ.pch2
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Last edited by dasz on Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dasz



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wink Wink Wink Updated and more fun! Wink Wink Wink
/Dasz


MicroTuning2_DZ.pch2
 Description:
v2 with max depth fixed to a low level, and morphing adjusting the depth knob (mod wheel) ... for cool detuning effect (like the THX sound but each note is independantly detuned)

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 Filename:  MicroTuning2_DZ.pch2
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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is quite good. There should be no reason to complain that the G2 can't handle micro tunings now.

Perhaps someone work with the numbers and get this so that the numbers on the control sequencer matches one cent. So if you want to detune F by + 3 cents, you can do that. This way people can load up whatever scale they want from a book. I'm very busy right now with electro-music 2006 or I'd do it myself. I have never been into micro tunings, but I know some people who are very serious about it.

Good job, Jan and Dasz... Very Happy

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, as Peter pointed out the other day .. I can hardly claim any copyrights on a constellation of a few modules :-)

Just like like Howard I'm pretty busy as well, but still had a quick go at this. Seemed good although the tuning for one or two of the notes around the 'central E' (note 64) seemed 'different' somehow ?

Could very well be my ears twisted though; when I play a simple sine (at about a kHz or so) sometimes the pitch seems to change when I move my head slightly - weird effect.

Would need a keyboard for this ... to try chords and then move the sliders.

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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sine waves can drive you crazy. Way back when I used to perform with a classical violinist. He was conservatory trained and played in the San Fransisco Symphony. When he would come over to my studio to practice/jam, he would want to tune up. I'd play a sine wave on the Moog and he'd feak. He couldn't match the pitch. If I played a saw or square wave or anthing with a few harmonics, he was fine.

I would process his violin though a ring modulator and several other toys and my Moog usually was patched for noise so tuning up made no real sense. Still, he said he just couldn't play without first tuning up. Very Happy

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jksuperstar



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:27 pm    Post subject: about that picture Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dasz, I dig your laptop attachment -- what is it? Is it specific to the V-stand, or is is a generic off-the-shelf piece?
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dasz



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jk, I don't know what kind of laptop extension that is. It was not my rig, but Clavia's (I don't own a g2x or a nord stage).

Re the tuning, I want someone to fine tune this patch (no pun intended). All my gear (and furniture) is boxed away. We just started completely renovating the home.

The color scheme is red of course (not really ... I wish Wink )
/Dasz

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Chet



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:12 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for posting this. It will be very useful for me.
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dasz



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh happy bliss of a day tis is ... a new toy for the weekend...
/Dasz

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GovernorSilver



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dasz,

I must acknowledge respect for your efforts on this issue! Cool

I almost wish I didn't sell my G2 now. As it us, I am unable to play with your patch and must ask these questions:

1. What is the fine tuning resolution in your patch? 1 cent? 1.5 cents? 100 cents?

2. Can I tune all 127 notes in the MIDI range?\

3. What is the tuning range of each of those 127 MIDI notes? If I so desired, could I tune MIDI note 1 to the highest key of the piano and MIDI note 126 to the lowest key?

Thanks!
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GovernorSilver



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Doh! I forgot I could just download the demo software!!! Embarassed

I'll do that, and try your patch, Dasz! Will report back...
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windchill



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

As far as I can tell the microtuning patch does not work.
There are two problems, one is significant.

(1) The offset of -1 is wrong as this sets the 'base' key to b instead of c. As far as I can tell setting the offset to -2 fixes the problem without breaking anything.
(2) This is more serious. If you go high enough up the keyboard (or patch in a high enough pitch value) the output of the mod circuit is 13 instead of 1. It outputs 13 whether the offset is -1 or -2.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I spent ages trying to fix it last night (too long in fact) - but there is something going wrong that I can't quite get my head round (it would help if I fully understood what the offsets are doing). Anyway - once you get into one of the octaves above the zero value - it starts outputting values between 2 and 13 instead of 1 and 12.
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dasz



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

it's been a while since I looked at this patch. the offsets as I recall were meant to keep the output within an octave and it was a matter or trial and error to set up the values.

The basic idea was to pass the normal pitch information and then do a modulus to select the right note offset in the sequencer thus a c could have different tuning than c#.

looks like the problem in the high registers is some rounding/calculation error. I'll look into it.
/Dasz

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dasz



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ok, it's a hack but now it will never hit the 13th step, but resets to 1. it is a hack, as the right solution involves setting the offsets correctly, which is something I do not have time for at the moment.
/Dasz


microtuning3_dz.pch2
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GovernorSilver



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for updating the patch!

I WILL try it soon, as I just ordered a G2X!
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

really like this unit, am currently puzzling over the maths.
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dasz



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

the idea is that I take the note number capture which octave the note is in, then run the notes of an octave (note number modulus 12) within that octave through a voltage sequencer (which can add a positive or negative offset) and the add the offset to the note that originally came in ...

/Dasz

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, I kinda sussed that but I couldn't get my head round the offsets n their particular values (the "-2" n the reason that it drifted n needed amending after E4), I gave up in the end n started making noises instead.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just tried the patch. It definitely has potential, particularly with the ability to instantly switch between variations of 12-note/octave tunings by use of the Variation buttons. With my relatively simple needs, this patch close to being immediately useable.

The tuning part of this patch should definitely go into the Building Blocks section! Then it will be easier to try the tunings with other sounds.

I guess if I wanted to try to extend this Building Block to support retuning of all 128 MIDI Note Number values, the way would to use multiple Control Sequencer modules?

Thank you, once again, Dasz and Jan!

BTW, I was unable to find Palle's tuning patch, just for the sake of comparison. Is his patch archived anywhere?
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dasz



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

GovernorSilver wrote:
Just tried the patch. It definitely has potential, particularly with the ability to instantly switch between variations of 12-note/octave tunings by use of the Variation buttons. With my relatively simple needs, this patch close to being immediately useable.

The tuning part of this patch should definitely go into the Building Blocks section! Then it will be easier to try the tunings with other sounds.


I'm glad it's helping. I'm not one to do microtuning in my music, so this set of patches was more of a thing I wanted to do for electro-music. It's a conceptual mockup rather than a clean and optimized solution.

GovernorSilver wrote:

I guess if I wanted to try to extend this Building Block to support retuning of all 128 MIDI Note Number values, the way would to use multiple Control Sequencer modules?


We could do that (you'd need a multiplexer to select which octave sequencer to use using the incoming note modulus), but it'd be a "pain" to configure all those 128 steps Wink

GovernorSilver wrote:

Thank you, once again, Dasz and Jan!

BTW, I was unable to find Palle's tuning patch, just for the sake of comparison. Is his patch archived anywhere?


You're welcome, Gov'nr. It would be nice to see a practical example of how you're using this patch. I only did some test tuning.

If it can be tuned it nicely and if it was connected to some patches that chet did in his physical modeling tutorial

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-15915.html

Cheers,
/Dasz

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dasz wrote:

GovernorSilver wrote:

I guess if I wanted to try to extend this Building Block to support retuning of all 128 MIDI Note Number values, the way would to use multiple Control Sequencer modules?


We could do that (you'd need a multiplexer to select which octave sequencer to use using the incoming note modulus), but it'd be a "pain" to configure all those 128 steps Wink


That's good to hear, that one can add a multiplexer to make retuning all 128 MIDI Notes possible. I personally do not have this need, but I am looking out for musicians who might.

What I have in mind is an external application that can read a Scala tuning file and write a tuning Building Block into a .pch file with all the steps already tuned as specified in the file. The Scala file format is defined here: http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/scl_format.html

That way, it will be easy to use any of the 3000+ tunings already available in the Scala archive, except for physically modeled sounds. I don't mind taking on this project myself, after I've familiarized myself with the G2 Editor and controls sufficiently and also learned Python so that collaboration with the g2ools people is possible.

dasz wrote:

You're welcome, Gov'nr. It would be nice to see a practical example of how you're using this patch. I only did some test tuning.

If it can be tuned it nicely and if it was connected to some patches that chet did in his physical modeling tutorial

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-15915.html

Cheers,
/Dasz


That sounds like reasonable challenge. I will combine your tuning buildling block with one of the simpler sounds, implementing the Persian scale form known as Shuur and record a little improv with it. I learned this scale form from a teacher who has quantized many of the scale degrees to the Western equivalents, except for quarter-tone accidentals. This quantization of Persian, Arabic, etc. into Western 12-tone tuning, with only the quarter-tones retaining their regional character, is controversial, but it does make learning for Western students a little easier. So basically, there is only one quartertone accidental in this scale - a neutral 2nd - and 2 half-tone flat notes. Even with this westernized Shuur, the neutral 2nd is a standout scale degree.

I am a fan of Chet's physical modeling efforts. I dream of a physically modeled ney or shakuhachi patch. But microtuning physical models presents a set of challenges beyond normal synth patches. This page explains the issues of microtuning physical models - it's specific to the VL-70 synth but probably applies to the G2 physical model patches too:

http://lonestar.texas.net/~mr88cet/retuningVl70m/microTuningVl70.html

After the basic requirement is met, perhaps another app specifically for microtuning G2 physical models can be made.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

GovernorSilver wrote:
This page explains the issues of microtuning physical models - it's specific to the VL-70 synth...

I happen to have a VL70-m Exclamation
Quote:
From the front panel of the VL70-m however, you can only devise 12-tone-per-octave tunings whose pitches differ by no more than 64 cents from 12TET (12-tone-equal temperament). All pitches octaves apart on the keyboard need to be octaves apart. These restrictions are much to strong for most microtonal work.

Paolo, you own LMSO, so why bother Question Cool

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
GovernorSilver wrote:
This page explains the issues of microtuning physical models - it's specific to the VL-70 synth...

I happen to have a VL70-m Exclamation
Quote:
From the front panel of the VL70-m however, you can only devise 12-tone-per-octave tunings whose pitches differ by no more than 64 cents from 12TET (12-tone-equal temperament). All pitches octaves apart on the keyboard need to be octaves apart. These restrictions are much to strong for most microtonal work.

Paolo, you own LMSO, so why bother Question Cool


I asked XJ once about using LMSO with the Nord G2. It was one of synths that he could not find a way to retune except by MIDI Pitch Bend, which has its limitations.
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seraph
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

GovernorSilver wrote:
It was one of synths that he could not find a way to retune except by MIDI Pitch Bend, which has its limitations.

all the synths not supposed to be retunable are retunable by pitch bend (Propellerhead Reason is one of them) using LMSO's Nuscale method. I guess the G2 is no exception. it looks like maximum poliphony you can get this way is 4 (1 for each slot). Is this the limitation you are talking about?

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