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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Thomas Henry designs
Thomas Henry's SN76477 Super Controller Module
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Is there an interest in Super Controller PCBs?
Yes, by all means.
95%
 95%  [ 23 ]
No, it just doesn't cut the mustard, i think.
0%
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I don't know. I mean, i... er...
4%
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Total Votes : 24

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fonik



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

antman49443 wrote:
Fonik:
I had a little spare time and started comparing your pcb layout to Tom's schematic in the book. It's a little difficult as your resistor and cap numbering is different, but I think I found a problem. Please examine Q7. It appears that the SN's noise output is routed into the drain of Q7 instead of the gate. I believe your layout for Q7 is 180 degrees out of alignment. If you rotate your MPF102 180 degrees, it should work with your pcb. I also checked Q6, and that one is fine. I'll continue to check when I get moments to do so and advise good, bad or otherwise as I go. Hopefully, that will get your prototype running.

Pin 19 of the SN/U1 should be tied to +5V, but it appears to be n/c

hey antman,

thank you very much for your efforts. i already noticed the rotated transistors. had no time to resolder yet.

pin19 is connected to +5V as pin 15 is. the jpeg above is a screenshot of a doublesided layout and one can't see the traced of the 2nd layer clearly...

what about the mpf102. i'd thought it could be swapped, source and drain could be interchanged? am i wrong here?

anyway thank you very much. i will resolder the transistors (better replace them) tomorrow.

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Dan Lavin



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fonik:
Well, I had to dig out my old college text books concerning JFETs like the MPF102. When the gate is shown in the middle of the line, it implies that yes the drain and source can be interchanged, but not all JFETs are. I will be honest and admit that I'm not sure about the MPF102, so you may be safe. Go ahead and change the other NPN X-sistors and if you still aren't 100%, try swapping the JFET's around....unless some other enlightened soul reading this can provide some illumination?
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bugbrand



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah I've been confused a bit by jfets before too...

Checking out the MPF102 datasheet - the gate is pin3, which suggests it'd only happily go in in one particular orientation. I think the 2n3819 has the gate in the middle (pin2) so is more rotatable.. (then there's also the confusion of id'ing which pin is pin3 --- different datasheets list things differently, so I've always spent a while noting down variants and head-scratching when building in jfets)

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fonik



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bugbrand wrote:
Yeah I've been confused a bit by jfets before too...

Checking out the MPF102 datasheet - the gate is pin3, which suggests it'd only happily go in in one particular orientation.

gosh! i did take a look at the datasheet but i did not see anything! it is a little bit awkward... thanks a lot.

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fonik



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

halt!
no cause to blame myself this time. i did use the correct footprint for the MPF102 so they are orientated in the right way.
pin3 is ground, that's it.
for the schematic it does not matter if you interchange drain and source, i still assume.

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Randaleem



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

Took a bit of digging, but:

http://www.du.edu/~etuttle/electron/elect25.htm

Third paragraph. It was buggin' me cuz we used to use a lot of these in old PAIA designs (Gnome, 2700 synth) and I know that we could put 'em in either way.

Back then (early 70's) the MPF102 was still sold as a unijunction transistor. With b1,b2 and gate for pinout.

But everything I was seeing just now was saying N-channel fet. This paragraph perhaps explains it...

BTW, here's another interesting link semi-related. But perhaps VERY useful to us in SDIY; considering the things said in this thread Smile

http://www.io.com/~n5fc/m3_sa.htm

Go to the the line just above the fifth picture. Which is the fourth set of three readouts. But IMO good reading all.

Randal


fonik wrote:
halt!
no cause to blame myself this time. i did use the correct footprint for the MPF102 so they are orientated in the right way.
pin3 is ground, that's it.
for the schematic it does not matter if you interchange drain and source, i still assume.
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fonik



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks for the links, randal.

when i understood it right thomas used the MPF102's in a switch configuration (in two slightly different ways, but still switches) so drain and source could be interchanged. somehow this way (www.elektronik-kompendium.de - analog discrete switches):
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

this one really shakes me:
Quote:
Even all MPF102's are not pinned out the same way, which is extremely annoying to discover after you've been troubleshooting a homebrew circuit unsuccessfully all day long.


so i will have to check the brand of the MPF102's i got, and then look for the appropriate datasheet...

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bugbrand



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Randaleem wrote:

http://www.io.com/~n5fc/m3_sa.htm


That component tester looks very interesting -- maybe invaluable if the mpf102s do indeed have various different pinouts. You can get a kit for building one from these places:::

http://www.m3electronix.com/sa.html (US / Canada)

or

http://www.mwinstruments.com/AS4002/AS4002.html (Europe etc)

--- the kit is 40euro or you can get a pcb and prog'd PIC for 25... that sounds pretty darn good. Anyone ever used / built one?

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Dan Lavin



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fonik and troops,
I had some down time this am and finished checking the board layout. Here's my summary:
1. NPN transistors Q1, Q2, Q4 and Q5 are flipped 180 degrees (Q3 is fine)
2. Q7 is flipped 180 degrees (assuming pinout below)
3. Since drain/source are assumed to be interchangeable, Q6 is fine
4. Fairchild pin out for the MPF102 is
Pin 1 = Drain
Pin 2 = Source
Pin 3 = Gate
5. I could not find a "W" wiring post for the S/A input into A7. If it's not there, we can always tack onto the A7 side of the grounding resistor. Not a big deal.
Other than that, I have verified all components on TH's book against your pcb and everything looks very good. Less mistakes than I usually have!
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fonik



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hey antman, great work, thank you very much.

antman49443 wrote:
Fonik and troops,
I had some down time this am and finished checking the board layout. Here's my summary:
1. NPN transistors Q1, Q2, Q4 and Q5 are flipped 180 degrees (Q3 is fine)
2. Q7 is flipped 180 degrees (assuming pinout below)
3. Since drain/source are assumed to be interchangeable, Q6 is fine
4. Fairchild pin out for the MPF102 is
Pin 1 = Drain
Pin 2 = Source
Pin 3 = Gate

how could this be? if gate is on pin3 the j-fet has to be in a specific direction, no matter if we could interchange drain and source?

Quote:
5. I could not find a "W" wiring post for the S/A input into A7. If it's not there, we can always tack onto the A7 side of the grounding resistor. Not a big deal.

found this mistake meanwhile and fixed it.

i did find another mistake: the initial clock potentiometer and trimmer should be connected via R55/R56 to pin6 of U7 NOT pin7! and resistor R16 in the feedbackpath of U5b should be 390k NOT 53k.

i shoud post the current version of the layout.

i will see what i could get done tonight...

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Dan Lavin



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fonik,

Quote:
how could this be? if gate is on pin3 the j-fet has to be in a specific direction, no matter if we could interchange drain and source?


I'm guessing you are referring to my statement about Q7? Currently your pcb shows Pin 1 (drain) connected to pin 6 of the SN instead of R41/R42. Also Pin 3(gate) is shown connected to R41/R42 instead of pin 6 of the SN. Source is Pin 2 and correctly connected to +15V. So the simple solution is to rotate the part 180 degrees and swap pins 1 and 3 in the pcb....it has nothing to do with switching the source and drain.

Glad you found those other problems with U7. I wasn't sure what you were using for U7 and I can't really check individual R and C values, so I was no help there. But it sounds like this board is now in good shape thanks to your efforts. I'm sure the rest of the forum is quite happy! Very Happy
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Dan Lavin



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fonik,

I got your email with the updated pcb layout and everything looks good. Thanks for the copy! I freaked out a little bit when I saw you moved Q3 and Q6 but you just cleaned up the layout a little bit. Also, I noticed caps C1, c13, c14, c15 moved as well. I'm guessing c13, c14, c15 were a little crowded on your prototype board as well as c1 perhaps. No big deal, it does look better.

Please go ahead and verify everything works with what you have now and if no problems, I'd recommend going ahead and ordering up your latest revision board with your board service. You've done an excellent job! Thanks from everyone here on the forum, I'm sure!
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ringer



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Fonik,

I asked in a private email if the rate of the lfo will be voltage controllable.

Will this function be added to circuit? thanks.

Cheers,
R
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

antman49443 wrote:
I'm sure the rest of the forum is quite happy! Very Happy


We sure are! Very Happy

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fonik



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ringer wrote:
Hi Fonik,

I asked in a private email if the rate of the lfo will be voltage controllable.

Will this function be added to circuit? thanks.

Cheers,
R

sorry, i must have missed that email somehow.

no, the won't be voltage controlable. it will be the original thomas henry super controller!

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fonik



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

antman49443 wrote:
Fonik,

I got your email with the updated pcb layout and everything looks good. Thanks for the copy! I freaked out a little bit when I saw you moved Q3 and Q6 but you just cleaned up the layout a little bit. Also, I noticed caps C1, c13, c14, c15 moved as well. I'm guessing c13, c14, c15 were a little crowded on your prototype board as well as c1 perhaps. No big deal, it does look better.

Please go ahead and verify everything works with what you have now and if no problems, I'd recommend going ahead and ordering up your latest revision board with your board service. You've done an excellent job! Thanks from everyone here on the forum, I'm sure!


so the noise circuit eventually is working. and it sounds gooood! its sweep is voltage controlled and there is a filter like the sn voice has. and it has a selectable frequency range: i just listened to it and it sounds like three different noises to me.

the LFO is still doing nothing. it is always on but not oscillating. i resoldered all NPNs. next step would be to use fresh and unused ones and maybe new ICs...

but not tonight. that's it for today.

thanks for listening and all the help.

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Dan Lavin



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fonik,
The LFO portion is relatively simple, so I would guess that the problem should be something obvious such as the setting of S4 or the gate in W5 not normalled to +5V. If that isn't the problem, start by verifying an output at pin 21 of the SN76477, then trace through U6, then U5. I'm sure you'll be running in no time.
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bubblechamber



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I heard back from a chip broker and the best he can do is $12 each. it seems like a lot of potential hassle for a $3 savings over arcadechips. better luck next time.
david
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Dan Lavin



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thomas,

If you're out there, Fonik and I require your assistance to verify something. I tried PM'ing you but either I'm an idiot or this forum will not let me PM you and I'm still an idiot.

Anyway, the BABMS and Sep/Oct 1981 Polyphony schematics are at odds with each other concerning Q1. The book shows the base of Q1 tied to +5V via 2.2K resistor and the status LED. The input S4 is tied to Q1's base via the 33K resistor. Fonik's pcb is currently like the book.

In Polyphony, Q1's base is tied to +5V via the 33K, then the 2.2K, then the LED with the S4 input at the 33K/2.2K resistor junction. This makes more sense to us as Q1 is always staying on for Fonik's book pcb regardless of whether ground or +5V is applied and Q1 is always on, grounding the SN's timing cap pin.

Can you verify the Q1 schematic in Polyphony is correct and the book is mis-printed? The circuit description in the book also seems to back up the Polyphony version. Thanks for your help!
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fonik



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

one step forward: i changed my prototype according the polyphony article and now EVERYTHING works! great! thank you thomas henry, thank you antman!

i think we can close the case. i will update the PCB layout and on thursday i will post same samples...

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Thomas Henry



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello Fonik and Antman,

You guys win the prize. I never noticed that before.

In fact, the Polyphony schematic is correct and the book schematic has a blunder in it. As you note, the verbal description only makes sense with the magazine version.

In case you're wondering how that happened, the publisher redrew all of my schematics (which by the way took me several hundred hours to do in the first place!)

Onward and upward,

Thomas Henry
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fonik



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

so here is the final version. as you might want to recognize: i added standard MTA.100 footprints for almost all potentiometers, switches and jack sockets. (EDIT 06JUL07: now all oriented according tim's suggestions) the boards size is 4.7 x 3.3 inch (120 x 84 mm). i will post some sound samples later this day.

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Last edited by fonik on Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:32 am; edited 4 times in total
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philpeery



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This looks really nice, Fonik! Any estimate on when it will be available for purchase?

Regards,
Phil
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fonik



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

boards will be available in august. all who placed an advance-order will get a PM then.
if you changed your mind PM me to cancel your advance-order, please.

prices:
PCB 18.-USD/13EUR
S&H 7.-USD worldwide/3EUR europe

i still take advance orders until 12 JUL 2007, 10:00 UTC.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i'm in for one!
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