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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Thomas Henry designs
The GM Voice
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fonik



Joined: Jun 07, 2006
Posts: 3760
Location: Germany
Audio files: 23

PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

THeff wrote:
There's seems to be a lot of misinformation floating around about the DB50XG and the DB60XG, as far as the capabilities of each. I'm even wondering if the DB50XG has analog inputs too. The MU10 is supposed to be a DB50XG in a module form factor and it has inputs. Someone with a DB50XG should try it and see.

i got one yamaha and two nec boards. on the yamaha board pins 12 6 16 are NOT connected to anything. this board has no AK4510 IC. the nec boards have been sold to me as DB50XG, but there is no ident on the boards, just "DB". they both have these pins connected, and they provide an AK4510 IC. so these boards are actually db60xg boards, i guess. Very Happy
unfortunately there are currently other projects to be finished, but it would be amazing, if i could utilize the two nec boards as fx processors!

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THeff



Joined: Sep 01, 2006
Posts: 218
Location: Florida
Audio files: 30

PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Fonik,

That's cool, sounds like you have two good boards! I have never had a close look at the DB50XG and was wondering if any thing was connected to 12 & 16.

gfloreza,

When I get some time I will see what input levels the DB60XG can withstand without clipping. The default mode of the card at power-up is at a line level. I was running an iPOD into it as a quick and dirty signal source last night for testing. I have added a 50k stereo potentiometer to the front panel of the module for input level adjustment.

I'm not sure yet if there is a gain stage that can be enabled to provide mic level inputs. I saw this function on one of the Yamaha devices but I'm not sure if it was the DB60XG.

Regards,

Tim
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THeff



Joined: Sep 01, 2006
Posts: 218
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Audio files: 30

PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:27 pm    Post subject: Easy testing of the DB60XG Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

All,

I have enclosed a Zip file containing many SYSEX files to make testing of the DB60XG easier. I recommend using MIDI-OX to send the files because it is very easy and straight forward. The file named "Audio_ON.syx" turns the A/D on, sets mode to stereo, and sets both channels to max volume, all in one step.

More insight:

The commands that I posted earlier show a value of 64 for max vol., chorus and reverb, etc. The max value is actually 7f. Also, when the card is set for stereo, A/D commands sent to the left channel (NN=00) effects both channels (this includes vol., chorus and reverb, etc.) In stereo mode, commands sent to the right channel (NN=01) have no effect. To set the volume level balance in stereo mode the Pan command must be used.

Regards,

Tim


DB60XG_SYSEX.ZIP
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 Filename:  DB60XG_SYSEX.ZIP
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RF



Joined: Mar 23, 2007
Posts: 1493
Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

fonik wrote:
... so these boards are actually db60xg boards, i guess. Very Happy


Dang! I've got one of those NEC boards! Very cool work on this guys!
Can we wean the board from a computer control...

How feasable is it to use a PIC or some sort of programmable microcontroller with a simple physical interface for setting the effects?
I'd love to build one into a standalone module for the synth.

bruce

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THeff



Joined: Sep 01, 2006
Posts: 218
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey RF,

I was thinking about doing the same thing with a PIC. In fact I left space on the front panel for an LCD display and controls. I have built a lot of the MIDIBox stuff here: http://www.ucapps.de/ and a scaled down version could be adapted for this purpose. The only thing that I started thinking was that for the same price of all the PIC/LCD controller parts you can almost buy a Yamaha MU50 on eBAY. The flip side is that it is nice to have the DB60XG module mounted right inside your synth. I have built my module into a MOTM form factor.

Regards,

Tim
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gfloreza



Joined: Nov 03, 2008
Posts: 12
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:02 am    Post subject: Nec clone
Subject description: Input Gain Sysex
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Hello again.

My NEC clone is still on the way home and I can't probe anything.

Searching the XG Specifications I've found a Sysex tha is not documented in the "Yamaha SW60XG Special. Additional MIDI commands".

It is an adress called "INPUT GAIN" that is default to MIC(0).

With this command is posible to change to LINE input on a XG generic device:

F0 43 10 4C 10 NN 00 XX F7

Where NN is the A/D port number (0 or 1), and XX is 0 for MIC and 1 for LINE.

Can someone probe it?

On the other side, the MIDIBOX is very interesting but a bit confusing to me.

What I only need is a way of inyect sets of SYSEX for up to eigth or sixteen confgurations, without the need of a near computer.

One of my DB50XG is inside an Oberheim 1000, a master keyboard that has a way to Control Change, but no for SYSEX.

Thanks to all
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THeff



Joined: Sep 01, 2006
Posts: 218
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Audio files: 30

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi gfloreza,

I will try the GAIN command tonight when I get home. I don't think it will do anything because I think the mic preamp is not installed on the DB60XG. If you look at the PCB close you can see an empty spot for an 8 pin IC and misc components. I think this may be the mic preamp section.

Regards,

Tim
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THeff



Joined: Sep 01, 2006
Posts: 218
Location: Florida
Audio files: 30

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi gifloreza,

I sent the DB60XG my "audio_on" SYSEX file which enabled the input path. I had the ipod playing and then sent the following commands:

F0 43 10 4C 10 00 00 00 F7

F0 43 10 4C 10 00 00 01 F7

F0 43 10 4C 10 01 00 00 F7

F0 43 10 4C 10 01 00 01 F7

None of the combinations made any difference.

Regards,

Tim
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gfloreza



Joined: Nov 03, 2008
Posts: 12
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:34 am    Post subject: DB60XG
Subject description: input Gain
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Thanks THeff for your work.

My conclusion is that the input is Line, and although the XG default is Mic, without the preamp fase on the board, as you say, it works as a Line input.

Gflorez
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raoulblues



Joined: Oct 31, 2007
Posts: 16
Location: paris france

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I realized that with the MIDIbox
16 push encoders 16
16 leds
1LCD
all parameters are editable
banckstick of 650sons gm
600 sons and 300 qs
it works very well
excuzez my language I am French
if you want more rensiegnement I am at your disposal
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gfloreza



Joined: Nov 03, 2008
Posts: 12
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:53 am    Post subject: DB60XG
Subject description: I got it
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At last I have my NEC clone.

I'm proving it with the Sisex made by THeff and all works fine.

The sound with "Reverb" or "Chorus" is superb, and I'll go to change them to "Pitch Change" or "Voice cancel" to admire the new effects.

Hello raoulblues:

I want to know more about your project, and how Midibox controls XG, and the Qs300 voices. Actually I control it with XG-Gold but it can't control the A/D parts.

Thanks to all.
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raoulblues



Joined: Oct 31, 2007
Posts: 16
Location: paris france

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hello
My system is based on the MIDIbox 64 http://www.ucapps.de/
Write a program is to manage the parameters of the DB 50
if you want I can send you by mail
contact me here --- rolandsellier@noos.fr
I can send you a program that allows it
excuzez mo English
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janvanvolt



Joined: Nov 24, 2005
Posts: 285
Location: Mainz, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

a bit OT:
If somebody is looking for a board. I made me a total of 3 with futurlec and willing to sell the other two if there's some interest. PM me if interested... pricing around 20 EUR (unfortunately) but i take shipping.

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scriptstyle



Joined: Jan 22, 2008
Posts: 250
Location: nj

PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just a heads up. There is some great reading on the db50xg in the last 2 issues of nut and volts magazine.
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mjkirk12



Joined: Jan 05, 2009
Posts: 22
Location: Chicago, IL USA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:39 pm    Post subject: DB60XG
Subject description: QS300 voices and AK4510 datasheet
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Not sure if this is still active, but I have the AK4510 Codec (A/D + D/A) datasheet in PDF format.

I use XG Gold which enables the QS300 voices - no problems.

Also, there is a site for XG (SW60) which has Sysex for activating the input - perhaps this works on DB60XG.

http://www.studio4all.de/start.html Surf to the SW60XG special page.

I bought 3 DB60XG cards from the eBay seller in Shanghai last year - he must have a many of these - he hasn't run out yet.

Cheers,
Mike
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mjkirk12



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Posts: 22
Location: Chicago, IL USA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:29 pm    Post subject: DB60XG - AK4510 datasheet Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here is the datasheet AK4510 in PDF format


AK4510_codec.PDF
 Description:
Codec used on DB60XG card

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mjkirk12



Joined: Jan 05, 2009
Posts: 22
Location: Chicago, IL USA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:49 pm    Post subject: DB60XG - digital out Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Using an oscilloscope on the DB60XG, the AK4510 digital inputs (CMOS/TTL) are pretty simple:

Pin 17 SDTI = Serial stereo input A/D data, MSB first
Pin 13 STD0 = Serial stereo output D/A data, same format
Pin 12 SCLK = Serial Data Clock = 48xFs = 2.1168 MHz
Pin 11 L/R frame clock - Fs = 44100 Hz sampling rate, High=Left, Low=Right
Pin 9 CMODE = H -> MCLK = 384 Fs

For a clean (pure digital) signal, the digital inputs to the AK4510 could be buffered and sent to a SPDIF transmitter IC for digital SPDIF (coax/fiber) input to a sound mixer.

Cheers,
Mike
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janvanvolt



Joined: Nov 24, 2005
Posts: 285
Location: Mainz, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:21 am    Post subject: Re: DB60XG - digital out Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

anyone i can dedicate my 2 unpopulated GM voice PCB's ? I originally asked 2 EUR for it, but for 10 EUR each it's yours.
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neuweiler



Joined: Jan 12, 2010
Posts: 5
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:56 am    Post subject: Re: DB60XG - digital out Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mjkirk12 wrote:
For a clean (pure digital) signal, the digital inputs to the AK4510 could be buffered and sent to a SPDIF transmitter IC for digital SPDIF (coax/fiber) input to a sound mixer.


Now this sounds very interesting! I was always wondering if it'd be possible to connect the DB via SPDIF because it would eliminate the high SNR you might get on analog audio and also improve other aspects of the sound quality.

Is there anyone who could explain how to do this and what parts would be needed? Would someone even dare to adjust the original print layout / schematics?
Unfortunately I'm not into digital signal processing - I only know how to do some soldering...

Michael
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neuweiler



Joined: Jan 12, 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:24 am    Post subject: GM-Voice on a perfboard Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi folks,

After studying all different solutions to build a MIDI interface for a waveblaster card, I came up with a solution on a perfboard that is mainly based on Thomas' solution and got some ideas from the solution c't presented a while ago (http://www.heise.de/ct/artikel/MIDImal-285418.html). As I couldn't get my hands on a 6N138 optocoupler, I tried it with a 4N28 and it works fine. It even saves some parts (1 resistor, 1 cap).
I also stripped the amplifier part because I just want to connect the module to my stereo. Thus I use chinch audio jacks instead.
I kept the part numbering from Thomas, that's why there are some gaps in the numbering of capacitors.

The wavetable board can be attached to the two perfboards through the two left-most hole pairs in each board. The other two holes' intention is to give the boards some additional attachment to the casing.

So, if you want to do it really cheap, you might try this approach with the perfboard. The only two things that are missing in this desing are:
1) the "audio in" / "mic in" connection for a DB60XG (clone)
2) an spdif output (coax or optical)

If someone could help me/us and explain how to buffer and transform the digital signal coming from the ak4510 into an spdif signal, I'd really really appreciate it !

Michael

PS: Yeah, I know... hoping to revive an old thread.. Smile


Waveblaster-Midi-Layout.pdf
 Description:
Perfboard layout for a waveblaster-midi interface - based on Thomas' design

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 Filename:  Waveblaster-Midi-Layout.pdf
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Waveblaster-Midi-Partlist.pdf
 Description:
partlist for the waveblaster-midi interface. Based on Thomas' original list

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 Filename:  Waveblaster-Midi-Partlist.pdf
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THeff



Joined: Sep 01, 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:14 pm    Post subject: Controller for DB50XG Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here is a link to a nice PIC microcontroller based controller for the Yamaha DB50XG daughter card.

http://www.grapevyne.com/pic.projects/

The project is called mistralXG. I have not built it, but it looks great!

Regards,

-Tim
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Taylor



Joined: Jul 13, 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thomas just pointed me to this project and I'm really into building it. I bought a clone of the DB60XG on ebay. It's an NEC XR385.


According this this, this board should work with this circuit. However, I have no idea how to access some of the features, which seem to go beyond the basic GM ones:


Quote:
676 on board fully programmable sounds.
21 on board fully programmable drum kits.
Full pitch envelope staging.
Dynamic panning control of all 3 effects sends.
3 on board independent 24 bit DSP processors.
18 bit delta sigma DA converters with total dynamic range of 96Db.
64 different effects types.
Up to 16 parameters per effect.
3 band fully parametric EQ.
5 band graphic equalization.
Full ADSR envelope stage.
Harmonic content parameter on all sounds.
Guitar AMP simulation modes.
On board 16 bit 12 Mhz CPU. 256 kb on board DSP RAM.
32 kb on board voice program memory (DRAM).


[Source for the above]

Does anyone have any idea if it's possible to access some of these things without a computer attached, or am I basically on my own here? I'm fine with just the standard stuff, but it would be pretty neat to unlock panning, cheesy digital effects. And apparently it adds 548 sounds to the standard GM 128!
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Dan Lavin



Joined: Nov 09, 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You'll either need to access via a computer or create a custom uP based interface normally. But if you have a midi controller that can send midi system ex commands, you may be in luck. Do a search for the "Beggers Guide to XG" I think it's called. It should clue you in.
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mjkirk12



Joined: Jan 05, 2009
Posts: 22
Location: Chicago, IL USA

PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:02 pm    Post subject: GM Voice and DB60XG Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If you want to unlock more DB60XG sounds, I would recommend XG Gold:
http://www.midiweb.de/main/pro/yamaha/gold/gold_e.htm

Well worth the shareware registration fee of US$30
Support is very good from the author - if you need it.
With registration, it unlocks hundreds of 'hidden' sounds of Yamaha's QS300 http://webspace.webring.com/people/rm/matamatas

You can capture the MIDI output of XG Gold into a SMF file and replay it to the standalone DB60XG to set any patches.

Another good site for XG info: http://www.studio4all.de/start.html

No affiliation with any of these, just a satisfied customer.

I have 3 DB60XG cards.

-Mike
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Taylor



Joined: Jul 13, 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Interesting, but for me the whole point of building this keyboard is to get away from the computer. I'm not that deep into MIDI, but I'd like to be able to just access this stuff from my MIDI keyboard. And maybe I can - I'm going to delve deeper into it once I get it all built. I'm also rebuilding my cheapo M-Audio keyboard into an isomorphic wicki-hayden keyboard and I'll build this module into the new case.
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