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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software
DS 7 clone
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tokyomatik



Joined: Jan 20, 2011
Posts: 170
Location: berlin
Audio files: 6

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

joshco wrote:
Completed also, one of Marc´s Ds8. The Circuit works but only Trigger, Noise, LFO and VCA. The VCO makes no sound. I have checked wiring, Capacitors, changed IC´s, checked Power Conections and Ground.
I have a small Scope and a Multimeter.

Any Ideas where i should be able to measure the VCO Triangle or Wave? or what to looking for?


Thanks!

well actually im in the same situation, i was checking this thread to see if somebody found an answer for joshco, actually looks like NO or at least not on this thread, i dont see it.
So, i have the same problem as joshco:
trigger, decay, noise and pan are working as expected
i can perceive the sweep, and lfo when im almost completely panned to vco, but then, on vco is basicly mute
any tips??
i have the ds8 rev 1.0 - 06 october 2004(marc bareille pcb)
and i have to say the bom & schematics are a bit confused
for example, the bom says c5 100n poly but on schematics c5 is electrolytic.
before simply was not connected, because another bom also called rev 1.0 with the same date 06 oct 2004, was saying: c5 22pF ceramic (optional)
so i believed the problem was coming from there but is not
in the while i started to hate this pcb( i also had to drill some missing holes)
i never saw such a bad quality and confused documentaion to support it,
and for that price im a bit surprised that some people bought it.
probably i still a beginner, but i ve been able to build 258 in a couple of days without problems and is working perfectly, same for the sn voice.
should i simply give up with the easy stuff?
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ericcoleridge



Joined: Jan 16, 2007
Posts: 888
Location: NYC

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I eventually got my two DS7s working and added some of the mods discussed here. But after having and using these drums a bit... I have to say... they're sort of not that good. don't beat me.

I can't really get punchy, thuddy, or dummy--rolling kicks, toms, or snares from this circuit...I'm sort of finding it good just for .... woodblock sounds or synth modulation sounds. I'm not really getting what I was after from a drum synth. It's not that it doesn't get deep, it does, but it's always sort of hollow sounding and not punchy. Maybe I need to experiment with it more, trying different parts.

Does anyone else feel this way?

ericcoleridge wrote:
I realized what the prob was, I was only powering and testing one side at a time-- it's necesary for both sides to receive power in order for the 13700 to receive both supplies.

The PCB works great. I'm going to try some of the mods
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tokyomatik



Joined: Jan 20, 2011
Posts: 170
Location: berlin
Audio files: 6

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i completely understand you,
i think i bought that pcb just to have that classic disco era "piiiiuuuunnnng" sound
but anyway after days trying to make it work i just gaved up and decided to buy a thomas henrys MPS board
much more flexible for what u are looking for and for sure it will be able to do whatever u can create with a ds7/ds8 if not better
a bit more stress for the wiring and debuggin but sure is worth a bit of extra work on that
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umschmitt



Joined: Jun 29, 2011
Posts: 188
Location: brrlin
Audio files: 11

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hop hop hop ! Don't be so distressed, people ! I agree that the DS-x are far from the most versatile sound making boxes in the universe (I think I dared a similar remark on these very pages some time ago). At least, as you said tokyomatik, it does this "piuung" sound and it does it well (also serves as deeeep bass drum). Not much more. But it's not a proper module, right ?
Yet you can mod / expand them and it turns them into something totally different. Few months (years ?) ago I posted as work in progress some ideas in this direction. Now it's done and ready with everything working as expected (to my standards). It has no less than 16 knobs and 9 switches, 4 ins and (only) one out. I'll post the schematics very soon, I just need to double triple check it before. Same for the stripboard I designed, I'll post it when I have it actually working. In the meanwhile, enjoy those Mutant DS7 sounds !

ericcoleridge, did you try to feed the ouput of one of the "modules" into the CV input of the other ? (maybe amplify or reduce the CV resistor) This could give interesting results in terms of bass drum sounds…

tokyomatik, just tell me in which mülltonne you threw yours, I may have a chance to get it… Seriously, there seems to be several versions of the schematics etc. Some things might have been lost/changed with the different revisions. For instance on the schematics currently available, C5 is the tiny cap across the 741… You could think of dropping an email to Marc B. in order be sure to have the relevant info, or simply to ask him about your problem… There's no reason why it shouldn't work after all.


Mut_DS7_sounds1.ogg
 Description:
Starting with the classic DS7 sound then balancing towards square wave and adding several filter modulations.

Download
 Filename:  Mut_DS7_sounds1.ogg
 Filesize:  6.47 MB
 Downloaded:  554 Time(s)


Mut_DS7_sounds2.ogg
 Description:
A little sequence with TBish filter squelch. *Quiz : find out the song !*

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 Filename:  Mut_DS7_sounds2.ogg
 Filesize:  2.94 MB
 Downloaded:  596 Time(s)


Mut_DS7_sounds3.ogg
 Description:
Syncing the LFO to the note trigger.

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 Filename:  Mut_DS7_sounds3.ogg
 Filesize:  1.83 MB
 Downloaded:  447 Time(s)


Mut_DS7_sounds4.ogg
 Description:
More boring DS7 sounds, then external audio modulation, first in the filter, then in the VCO. Modulating with notes is yet more musical, well maybe another time…

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 Filename:  Mut_DS7_sounds4.ogg
 Filesize:  4.11 MB
 Downloaded:  424 Time(s)


Mut_DS7_sounds5.ogg
 Description:
Oh, melody ! Fun sounds achieved by applying audio range LFO into the filter (+decay EG), staying at the edge of a dirrrty resonance.

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 Filename:  Mut_DS7_sounds5.ogg
 Filesize:  2.96 MB
 Downloaded:  483 Time(s)


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umschmitt



Joined: Jun 29, 2011
Posts: 188
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Audio files: 11

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Funnily I wasn't able to post this attachment with the rest…


Mut_DS7_sounds6.ogg
 Description:
This one goes crazy ! Audio output is shorted with trigger input and audio modulation, allowing some kind of… whaddya call this ? It just plays by itself ! REALLY unpredictable and funny.

Download
 Filename:  Mut_DS7_sounds6.ogg
 Filesize:  7.94 MB
 Downloaded:  590 Time(s)


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tokyomatik



Joined: Jan 20, 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

well, about my ds8, i can tell you that the part involving the noise section works,
pan, color switch, decay and a bit of the lfo and sweep, when is panned almost completely to vco i cannot say the same about the last one
is basicly mute
last nite i was checking the various documentation i have
they are all rev 1.0 and all of them are dated 06 october 2004, so u can imagine my mental confusion
anyway i have the version 1.0, there was not yet the optional cv, r31 nc and c5 should be 100nF but is not clear if its electrolytic or poly, schematics and bom are also confusing me
at the beginning i build mine without c5 because on the first bom i had, was signed as c5 -22pF (optional), then when i realized that the board was not working i found another bom and so i added c5 - 100nf poly but nothing changed, then i checked the schematic and i saw c5 as electrolytic so i tried with a 1uF( i didnt had a 0.1uF around) but still the same, at the end i dont think the problem is coming from that cap.
the wiring also was not so clear....
lfo in the wiring instructions is reversed respect to the drawing
anyway i fixed more or less everything but vco still mute
swapped various lm324, ca3080, 741....
checked all the orientation of polarized caps, ics, transistors and diodes
i also had to drill some missing holes
sometimes im so exausted that i would desolder everything and start from zero but the quality of this board is not that good so desoldering could lift the traces, if i think that for less money i just bought a TH MPS board shipping included, i would never buy again a ds8 or spending 1 second to build it.
i started it together with the dual 258j and for that, 2 days of soldering but thats it, BAM! lets make music!!
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umschmitt



Joined: Jun 29, 2011
Posts: 188
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh oh ! So you can hear a bit of sweep and LFO through the output ? That means something's oscillating in there ! How does it sound like ? Is it loud ? In the hi/lo end ? Saturated ? Is the pitch dependent from the VCO pot ?
Besides, has your reference schematics the same VCO section as the one on the site ? (VCO is around U3:B, U3:C, U3:D and Q3 if you searched)
Again, there's no reason why it shouldn't be able to work…

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tokyomatik



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

umschmitt wrote:
Oh oh ! So you can hear a bit of sweep and LFO through the output ? That means something's oscillating in there ! How does it sound like ? Is it loud ? In the hi/lo end ? Saturated ? Is the pitch dependent from the VCO pot ?
Besides, has your reference schematics the same VCO section as the one on the site ? (VCO is around U3:B, U3:C, U3:D and Q3 if you searched)
Again, there's no reason why it shouldn't be able to work…

well almost completely cw is the same volume of the noise and the wave is not anymore noise on my scope but kind of mix triangle/sine with a soft square rectification at the bottom
looks interesting but is only in the hi end, kind of sonar sound, the pitch pot doesnt infuence it so much...just a little bit, almost imperceptible also on the scope when is completely panned to vco is mute
i also have one pdf with this schematic, but is not the correct one for my board
i have the right one anyway...
my board is without optional cv and c5 is 100n, the schematic say polarized, the bom say poly, but as i already said i dont think is for that cap that the vco is mute....i hope
i think uc3 c is the output of the vco but on the scope i dont see anything....
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umschmitt



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

For now the best would be that you post the relevant schematics so we can name components with their actual names and see changes done to the circuit. I may have some time later today if it can help.
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tokyomatik



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

so here as attachment the real schematics & documentation of my board
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umschmitt



Joined: Jun 29, 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Man ! I don't know if you're supposed to post the whole doc with layout and all ! Any admin around who could tell the does and donts ? Anyway I saved the document on my computer…
So basically it's the same VCO. I check if the layout follows the schematics (just to be sure, I have no doubt it's OK). Stäy tüned.
One thing that came to my mind : if you have time, could you check continuity overall the VCO, taking measures at the very legs of the components ? Who knows, you may have a crack on one PCB track and not see it… (perhaps you already did that too !)

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tokyomatik



Joined: Jan 20, 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ups! sorry about the attachment, i didnt had in mind to do something wrong. i will remove it immediately!
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jumunius



Joined: Apr 19, 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tokyomatik wrote:
they are all rev 1.0 and all of them are dated 06 october 2004, so u can imagine my mental confusion
anyway i have the version 1.0, there was not yet the optional cv, r31 nc and c5 should be 100nF but is not clear if its electrolytic or poly, schematics and bom are also confusing me
at the beginning i build mine without c5 because on the first bom i had, was signed as c5 -22pF (optional), then when i realized that the board was not working i found another bom and so i added c5 - 100nf poly but nothing changed, then i checked the schematic and i saw c5 as electrolytic so i tried with a 1uF( i didnt had a 0.1uF around) but still the same, at the end i dont think the problem is coming from that cap.


I doubt C5 is your problem but in the BOM I have, it's ceramic 22pf. Even if it's 100nf it's probably better at the least that it be non-polar, and could actually be bad if it is polar. So don't use an electrolytic there.

Did you check for solder bridges? There are some really tricky traces on that board -- one in particular I remember runs through the legs of an IC. You might double check your soldering work, as you say, the board quality isn't as fancy as the MPS.

Personally, I think it's worth completing, although I sympathize with the frustration of having something not work no matter what you do. But if you ever want more than one drum voice playing simultaneously, you would have your MPS and your DS-8 to use. Plus I kind of like the sound of the noise filter on the DS-8 as compared to the one on the MPS, especially now that I used a 12 position rotary switch to cycle through many filter values.

Also, FWIW, Marc is pretty responsive. If you need build advice you might just shoot him an email.

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jumunius



Joined: Apr 19, 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

umschmitt wrote:
Hop hop hop ! Don't be so distressed, people ! I agree that the DS-x are far from the most versatile sound making boxes in the universe (I think I dared a similar remark on these very pages some time ago). At least, as you said tokyomatik, it does this "piuung" sound and it does it well (also serves as deeeep bass drum). Not much more. But it's not a proper module, right ?


Amazing work umschmitt! Quite a range of sounds. Maybe someday I need to get these mods on my working but forgotten DS7. (Since I have the DS8 and various other drum modules, poor old DS7 collects dust.)

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umschmitt



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Unexpectedly, I happened to have a social life yesterday evening… So, back to it. On the doc tokyomatik *didn't post*, C5 refers to the smoothing (I guess) cap to ground at the output of the VCO, which is 100nF. Different revs, different names…And I second jumunius about checking for solder bridges. Yes, that's boring, it's called debugging…
jumunius wrote:
Amazing work umschmitt!

Dankeschön ! I still need to post the schems, layout and stuff so everyone can try it !

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umschmitt



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

By the way, as one could imagine, I couldn't find any error between the schemo and the layout (call it overkill preliminary precaution). Now it's up to you tokyomatik !
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xpmtl



Joined: Aug 10, 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

umschmitt wrote:
Hey. No happy DS-8 owners passing by… Ready for some reverse engineering ? The 741 is obviously in the middle, and I guess the transistors are top left (solder side). Good luck !


I've reversed engineered that thing a while ago, so here's the pcb foil redrawn in Illustrator and the component placing + bom. I built two of those from this document so it should be working Wink

Enjoy,

X


ak47_final_3.pdf
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  ak47_final_3.pdf
 Filesize:  350.1 KB
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Last edited by xpmtl on Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:50 am; edited 2 times in total
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umschmitt



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That's cool, xpmtl ! Thanks for sharing ! I like the placement of the knobs, very handy…

Well. Here comes the schematics for my (slightly) modified DS7. Featuring :
* mixable square and tri waves (tri zaps the filter)
* CV input on the VCO
* CV input for VCF or VCA
* rustic yet efficient VC filter
* extended range LFO with switch
* LFO square ant tri waves available, independently selectable for VCO and VCF
* separate EG for VCA (release) and VCO/VCF (decay)
* LFO sync (on trig)
* audio in modulation, routable to VCO or VCF
* drone mode
* feedback mode, output goes to audio mod
* common trig / audio mode (I have my reasons)

Some values may not be optimized, some ways of doing things may be unorthodox, but since I'm happy with the result, I'll stay with that. Many thanks to all here who helped. Feel free to comment and/or improve !
(Now if you think the schemo is a mess, just wait until you see drawing for the stripboard layout)

[edit : schemo had an error, I uploaded the corrected version aka rev.1]


mutant_DS7.png
 Description:
This is rev.1 ! Previous version had an error (missing D9 diode) !
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mutant_DS7.png



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Last edited by umschmitt on Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:00 am; edited 2 times in total
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feggster



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

nice work xpmtl, thanks.
..a quick question, in the project document, caps c11 c12 c14 are only marked as NF whats the value for these?
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xpmtl



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

oops, thanks for noting that Rolling Eyes

c11, c12, c14 are 47nF

I've corrected the pdf.

x

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umschmitt



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Red alert ! Red alert ! The schematics I posted above had (to have) an error. A diode (D9 now) was missing at the decay generator. (Funnily, implementing this very diode had been the solution to my decay-that-don't-trigger-correctly problems…) I updated the schematics, apologizes to everyone (if any) who'd had tried it. Of course the stripboard drawing I made reflected the mistake, so I need to correct that too, thus more delay till I post it.
Otherwise, I'm nearly through the build of (let's call it) the synth, and it's reeeeally a fun thing. More when I'm done.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here we go ! So these are elements to build a stripboard extension to the DS7, in case one would be interested. It's quite a mess, but you've been warned ! Nevertheless, it has been build and tested, so it's guaranteed functional. *.diy file available on request.


Mut_DS7_strip_jumpers.png
 Description:
This is COMPONENTS side, beware !
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Mut_DS7_strip_jumpers.png



Mut_DS7_strip.png
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A very promising layout, noodly speaking. Yes, the audio in jack is drawn twice.
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Mut_DS7_strip.png



Mut_DS7_ cabling.png
 Description:
How to hook the extension on the original board by Marc Bareille. Yet even more mess.
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Mut_DS7_ cabling.png



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umschmitt



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK people, here are a couple of pictures about the construction of an augmented DS-7 clone.
(in exclusive Cheap-O-Vision quality)


Image011.jpg
 Description:
Here we have the circuit board of the extension. If you wonder about the colour, it's just ma having a red marker in the hand…
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Image011.jpg



Image013.jpg
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So we start from that mess…
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Image013.jpg



Image014.jpg
 Description:
The Danemann cigar box which was waiting for such a fate for months. It has been roughly clearcoated since.
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Image014.jpg



Image017.jpg
 Description:
All pots & switches in AND fitting the aluminium sheet (mostly for mechanical reinforcement). I finally used a 3 position rotary switch for the LFO ranges.
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Image017.jpg



Image019.jpg
 Description:
The same after having shamelessy soldered telecom wire, hopefully without mistakes in the process. (in fact there were quite some)
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Image019.jpg



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umschmitt



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

(continued)
>in random order, obviously.<

So here it is. I'm quite *very happy* with how it came out. Now I stop posting about it.


Slightly_augmented_DS7_clone.JPG
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Tadaa.
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Slightly_augmented_DS7_clone.JPG



Image020.jpg
 Description:
Looks like it all done. Will it fire up ? Note the boards being held by the wires. SO professional. (oh well I wanted to keep the wires short)
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creekree



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

umschmitt,

thanks for posting those mods.
I did the LFO shape (which is so ridiculously easy) and I love it.
The DS7 has been in my DJ-setup for ages, it´s low output allows me to put it into the Mic IN on my mixer. Add the Pioneer´s internal effects, and voila, instant Rasta Sound System for Junglists.

Greetings outta Neukölln!
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