Wicky/ Hyden keyboard layout best for MIDI

[jjj]

Now it's getting interesting! Soon we'll have all sorts of weirdos and warm bros joining our cause. Many fora thrive on this pretext.
Little do they notice how much more we are interested in enjoying and fulfilling our emotionally musical vims.

Beside the future of MIDI is getting brighter. Of course, emotional values reign supreme in musical creativity. Admittedly, today's MIDI instruments are still a long way off to allow perfect emotional control as it is possible with traditional music instruments. Therefore, my idol Klaus Wunderlich, did an amazing job! He knew how to incorporate "soul" into his electronic organ music... already 50 years back!
In the meantime things gotten easier. Roland's V-Accordions now have "physical behavior modeling technology"; getting pretty close to the real thing. Soon more and more of the goodies, we might claim as "unique to traditional instruments", are going to be shared with MIDI instruments and the day will come when traditional music instruments will be outperformed by MIDI instruments! Look at the new Yamaha's Tyros II Maybe the Thummer could replace their awkward zebra piano keyboard? That would make it a versatile MIDI controller, since the Thummer will never be able to compete with Yamaha, Roland etc. Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Faivpz7cjo8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1Mk2Rst4Y8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giHvWl67Jdk

[MusicScienceGuy]

I have many of those functions and sounds, should I learn how to invoke them, in the software I have on the laptop driving my jammer.

But the interface is still a zebra.

[jjj]

It all should work via MIDI. Ideally, the Thummer and Jammer should as well drive/ control any Synth, such as the Tyros II. That would make sense to buy the Thummer or Jammer, since any other aspect is better on Roland, Yamaha etc. sound modules. You got to carve a niche in the market to make your product stand out and attractive to hobby musicians. Thus, you would only need a Thummer or Jammer Demo to demonstrate the advantage of the button keyboard and its versatility.
In other words, the Thummer, Jammer could offer hobby musicians a versatile Wicki adapter and MIDI controller. That's about the best good Jim can hope for. Watch out, because if Yamaha, Roland etc. get greedy, they can even offer their customers these kind of adapters.
The "parasite": http://www.live-styler.de software too, benefits from Yamaha's accompaniment styles by offering hobby musicians a complete DIY organ, for it can load any Sf2, VST/VSTi and countless presets. Yet, Live-Styler is a fairly complex software and so, fairly safe from Yamaha's aspirations; not so with diverse Kbd. adaptions, Yamaha could easily introduce a mappable button layout adapter for accordion and concertina players to offer access of their products to more hobby musicians...
At the moment Wersi, V-Accordion and Tyros II sounds are superior, but pricey. Hopefully VSTi manufacturers come to realize their shortcomings and get their act together, soon. That would eliminate the need to buy Yamaha or Roland keyboards and allow for more flexible and affordable MIDI controllers, such as the Thummer and Jammer.
The other day I had another bright idea: Dynamic control of otherwise "dead" soundfonts is vital. It's just impossible to control rapid, subtle sound volume variations via a button, the way accordion/ bandoneon etc. do. How about controlling volume and tremolo variations via a hand ball rest positioned in front of the Thummer Kbd ? That allows far better control.
For instance, the left box of the Thummer*) could be suspended via springs in a frame, which is attached to the Thummer's right box. By applying variable pressure via the left-hand hand ball rest, the same volume controller, I planned to use for the breath controller, could control volume and tremolo variations, see: http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-24658.html&postorder=asc

*) your Jammer could have a pressure sensitive hand ball rest along the front of its Kbd., instead. But then again, that notion only works with a smaller keyboard, such as the Thummer, were the keys are in finger reach while the hand ball remains at its support, as the left hand on the bandoneon or concertina. That's why the buttons size should be kept as small as possible. The PC keyboard button spacing and size are just right for the human hand. Or else only thieves will be able to play big-button sized Kbd. ...for they have "long fingers"!

[jjj]

Since my electronics stuff is all packed up, I unpacked my Synth with the Janko keyboard on it and keep practicing the Janko layout, instead.
Maybe some of you clever brains know how to reprogram the colors of three notes for personal use. I have got an old version of Klavarskribo notation Freeware), which never expires.
I also wrote to the Klavarskribo notation programmer to suggest the following changes to suit the Janko layout:

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[MusicScienceGuy]

looks quite good to me.
ken.

[jjj]

Albeit Janko hasn't got all the advantages of Thummer and Jammer, at least it's far superior to the zebra piano layout. I might consider creating a plug-in Janko keyboard for my Synth, as well.
Advantage: Then I can decrease the key size (to PC size) and shorten its contact time.
I.e. now my “glued on Janko adapter” has the zebra piano Kbd. length of 84cm, yet it's possible to shrink its length to a mere 67cm (13.4cm per octave).
Shortening the Kbd's length and its keying time/ length from off to on allows faster key and action access; the unique advantage of all button keyboards.
All these seemingly unimportant details help even people "with two left hands" to get the best out of their efforts to enjoy being able to play some great tunes on this keyboard and that's what Thummer & Jammer aims to symbolize too, isn't it?

[MusicScienceGuy]

Playing a PC keyboard, you will only be able to make 2, 3 sometimes 4 keys sound at a time, and will not have any control over the volume. You may be used to this last feature, if you're used to an accordian.

Ken.

[jjj]

It's not a PC keyboard I want to use...
It's rather a plug-in keyboard I want to build by using the the same switches (http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/item/96B006/search/Keyboard%2DSwitch) I bought and also want to use for my Wicki Kbd.
So, this 67cm short Kbd will have 91 of these pushbuttons mounted on a wooden board to form a three row Janko Kbd to cover the 61 notes of my Synth.

The switches will only use the one (of two) of the Synth's key contacts, as I'm going to induce dynamic volume and tremolo variations via a separate control (like used in accordions). Albeit my Synth has velocity-sensitive keys, they only allow minute volume variations; futile, because with that I cannot create realistic volume/ tremolo variation of a bandoneon.

[MusicScienceGuy]

Meanwhile I'm pushing ahead to make my conversion kit. Lets see if I can make a starter set of kits for under $4,000! Wish me luck!
Ken.

I'll need orders - may I enlist help from the readers of this forum on getting the word out?

Ken, MusicScienceGuy.vox.com.

[jjj]

Of course, I wish you every luck... but may I tell you that kits under $4000 is a lot of money; hobby musicians just can't afford.
To tell you the truth, if I want to have a Wicki layout, I just build a plug-in keyboard for the latest Tyros II for under $2200 http://www.encuentra24.com/clasificados-page-o133816-panama-316-en.html and I really got the best there is. You just can't beat that offer!

How are your electronics skills?
If they are good, you could design an economical plug-in Wicki Kbd kit for any Synth. Many musicians would be interested in such a mappable button keyboard. Then you could also offer a three-row plug-in Janko adapter.

If your skills are on the mechanical side: You could design a three-row Janko adapter, which can be placed over any ordinary zebra piano Kbd and be removed any time. My Janko-PDF shows you such an adapter idea as well. This won't cost you much.

Yet, it will be very hard to get people to buy $3999 keyboards with MIDI basics. If there would be a lot of demand for it, you would have a list of buyers by now. Have you? So, wishing you luck is just not good enough...
There's another way to get your price down and that is:
Learn basic electronics, such soldering and reading schematics and then get a $50 keyboard encoder kit from http://www.largonet.net/midiboutique/products/products.htm
Then build a Wicki or Janko keyboard (with those cheap PC Kbd switches I bought and) wire them up and connect it to your MIDI port on your PC. Voila... your "miracle" is ready! Offer it for sale at $200 to 300 and you are in business!

Thus, I rather prefer to offer you to reconsider your venture and then wishing you good luck.

[MusicScienceGuy]

You mis-understand me; not surpizing, as my English is lousy.
$4000 (I hope) to produce 100 conversion kits, or $40 a kit.
I would hope to sell them for $200, and hope that I might sell 20, to to cover my costs and risk-cost: It's a gamble on my part.
I could lose $4000!

If I have orders for more than 30, I'll give the business to someone that needs the money.

Ken.

[jjj]

That's a different story then.
If they cost you $40 each, you could sell them for less then $200 (considering US's financial crisis) and that way attract even poor youngsters (hooked on grass) I suggest you price it so that you get at least, say $120 to 130 for you and the buyer has to pay shipping and insurance.
Remember: Start even cheaper and raise the price along ...with raising demand!

Well, so much luck you should have and deserve for your hard work!

[MusicScienceGuy]

The keyboards themselves will be $2-300 each. Less for smaller keyboards or factory returns, if the company will let me have them. So the initial price will still be high, $400-$500. I've had much higher offers for an complete unit like mine. It appears there is a demand, but not at the $4-5000 level.
ken.

[jjj]

I don't see why you have to buy keyboards... ??? You don't want to sell keyboards for the manufacturer! So why buy the Kbds in the first place? That forces you to increase your sales price to an insane level.
The lower the price the better should be your initial sales motto!
It comes far cheaper to learn a bit of basic electronics, practicing soldering and reading schematics (for about 2 month) and then get a $50 keyboard encoder kit from http://www.largonet.net/midiboutique/products/products.htm These people give you a discount too, if you buy several units from them.
Then build a Wicki or Janko keyboard (with those cheap PC Kbd switches I bought) wire them up and connect it to your MIDI port on your PC. Then you can afford to start selling them for $100 or 120 and still make a profit and you are in business! When sales are getting better, increase to $150. That sounds even attractive to hobby musicians... having to feed ten kids!

Beside, if you are totally new to electronics, buy a (child's) hobby kit from Tandy/ Radio Schack that comes with all parts, instructions allowing you to build 50, 100 or 200 small projects. That'll teach you the basics. All then you need is to learn soldering. Since you are pretty good at mechanics you won't have a problem!
I can give you good advice advice on how to make your own Wicki/ Janko Kbd and it'll be very much easier and cheaper than the one you have built.

This offers you the chance to initially only buy, say 3 keyboard encoders and build 3 units for sale... then see how you go. It's far wiser to lose $200 than $4000 (!)

[MusicScienceGuy]

jjj,
It's not so simple, I don't want to produce a handful of instruments. I want to produce many, cheap enough for people in the US and Canada to buy. Don't worry, I have not lost my mind.

Bottom line: producing 1 generic keyboard was hard, producing 100 is much easier. But it does involve my taking a risk.

Ken.

[jjj]

The thing is... the less you have to spend the more you earn!

To buy ready-made keyboards is a a gain for the Kbd manufacturer and a loss for you, for it forces you to increase the price and reduce your profit margin.
For the price of one bought keyboard you can buy four Kbd encoder IC, pushbuttons etc. and create four Jammers from it and make four profits!!!!
That's what I mean to suggest.

[MusicScienceGuy]

it's not so simple.
First, I want to enable others to do it, and many of them, although keen, don't have my set of skills - they have others that I don't have, like you for example. It needs to be dead easy to build.

Second, the stock keyboard I'm using has some very nice features, in including a good pianoforte touch, is USB powered, and works out of the box with any PC on the planet.

Third, I plan to sell the kits for say $200, and have kit buyers buy the stock keyboards themselves, but by buying returns and factory seconds from the manufacturer, I hope to get the 88, 69, and 49 key keyboards for less than the $300, 200, and 130 charged retail (prices are approximate).
The net cost of the jammer keyboard would be $500-200. not bad.

Ken.

[jjj]

[MusicScienceGuy]

Sorry about the high - to you - cost.

Still, it's in the right price range for many people in North America.
and its the best I can do so far. Give me time.

Remember that my real target is to prove a market for the Thummer and to make Jim P. a rich man - .

Of course, I'm not doing it for selfless reasons: I've having a blast (fun), and hope to become famous as "Mr. Jammer".

Ken.

[jjj]

So enjoy your gamble ...and you might be lucky! In any case, I wish you every success, because you worked hard for it.
Your mechanical skills are quite impressive! My wooden Janko Kbd looks quite cheap against yours, but as soon I'll be able to access my electronics stuff I'll built the (previously described) shorter plug-in Janko Kbd using pushbutton buttons.

[MusicScienceGuy]

You provided the "key" idea, without which I'd have been lost. thank you.
ken.
Also see the Musical Interfaces link. lets move our discussion there.

[jjj]

Mechanically seen, accordion keys are slimmer keys than Synth's keys ; i.e. their spacing equals the PC keyboard spacing. The limitation on how narrow the keys can be are of course set by the average human finger size and that's why the PC keyboard cannot be any smaller/ bigger.

Electronically seen, one is free to custom manufacture a plug-in keyboard, by using pushbutton switches and a keyboard encoder circuit, which then plugs into the MIDI port of the soundcard.
At 67cm length (for 61 notes!), less than 2kg weight that plug-in Kbd would be truly portable; allowing for a wider hand span and faster access speed.
Obviously, the considerable marketing advantage of such a ready-made, low-cost, plug-in Kbd is that it can be offered at min. $200 and not presupposing technical or electronics skills from buyers.

Yet, since there isn't any such thing (beside the pricey Chromatone) on the market... anything will do!
Welcome our progressive friend, Ken !

[jjj]

Hey, what's wrong with the Thummer.....
I think good Jim aims to high. By now the Thummer's promotion campaign is almost forgotten. Previously interested hobby-musicians waited for months, then years in vain and now they given up all hopes of ever seeing the Thummer on the market. Let's all pray for Jim's recovery.

In the meantime those disappointed hobby-musicians will soon find consolation in Ken's Jammer, replacing the Thummer as the viable alternative.
Good on you Ken! We wish you every success!!
You won't need our prayers, for your success seems as sure as the "Amen" in the church!

[SonicEd]

What a wonderful thread!

I have a small addition to the anti-zebra keyboardists. It's not as theory oriented as W/H, Janko or harmonic table systems but it is seven octaves, and chromatics are adjacent, which I think is important.

It's called the Sonic Palette and I make them for interested people.
www.sonicpal.com

Thanks!
Ed Christensen

[cbm]

Ed, your "keyboard" looks interesting. I'm amazed I hadn't heard of it before. How long have you been making it?

Chris