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Simmons SDS 3 - DIY?
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Randaleem



Joined: May 17, 2007
Posts: 456
Location: Northern CA, USA

PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:44 am    Post subject: update
Subject description: SDS 5 presets module as a stand-alone?
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mono-poly wrote:
Hi Randal
Are there any updates so far?
I am still excited about this Smile
Cheers,
Dennis


No worries, Mono!

Just moving out of talking mode for a bit and into doing mode...
Fitting all that circuitry onto 1/2 Euro cards takes focus!

First step is to get the moog filter and its VCA on the new PCB and tested for sound. (Dang! As I type that I wonder; why hasn't this been done before! Cool A patched out Drum voice like this has a lot of useful stuff in it! )

Within the Frac/Euro format I can panel mount 5 pots per card(*) so a two card set per voice is looking like it makes some sense. I'm looking at how I might separate the functions on these two so that the "extras" are on the 2nd card; making it kinda optional. Core circuit on the 1st board with 5 pots. Add the 2nd for all the goodies. Sounds good; but will it sound good? Laughing (And will the resulting panel layout work well and look good?)

(*) Blacet fits 6, but this requires special Panasonic 9mm pots. My basic "template" PCB has the ability to use Bourns, Spectrol, Panasonic, and Alpha 16mm pots. And likely others too. I give that up if I make it for 6 panasonics. Dotcom and MOTM can simply populate the pot holes intended for the bourns/spectrol with MTA's or flying wires. I follow the dotcom POT cable format. And even with MOTM and Dotcom you can still use every other pCB mounted pot on the front panel. That's a 1.6 spacing. Not too far from the native pot spacing of these 5U panel'd synths!

FWIW, I may have to go to full Eurocard for this SDS3 circuit; but prefer using two, 1/2 Euro PCB's so the pots are not flying wired. Need to know what are the limits on depth in your intended cabinets?

(I'm trying to make my line of modules all fit on 1/2 Euro's, so the overall depth is kept under 4"; but this is just me. What do you guys have to work with?)

The fact that the SDS5 voices fit in a 3U rack helps to make it seem possible. But as I originally said; if it doesn't sound the same as an SDS3; then it's not what we're after. (Actually I mean that if it can't be SET to sound the same. Seems we've added a few things to it along the way?)
The SDS 5 circuit is much "cleaner" than the SDS 3/4. Fewer discrete components. We're sticking with the SDS3/4 version!

(FWIW, We've got our July4, independence day holiday in the USA this week. )

Randal (Still excited too!)

BTW, The SDS 5 has a feature that I'm thinking might be nice as an independent module. NOT part of this SDS3 clone at all; but usable with this and other modules. Kinda wondering what you guys think?

The SDS 5 has 4 buttons easily pressed on each voice module. There are also 2 sets of trimpots accessible from the front panel. The voice has trimpots on the PCB so there are a total of 3 sets of trimpots and one set of panel pots. The buttons let you select any of the four of these quickly and easily.

So I'm thinking that this would make a nice module in itself. For ANY modular use, NOT just Drums.

Since my PCB and its "stock" Frac/Euro panel support 5 pots, I'd be working with sets of 5. I could make it "stackable"; like the old Serge programmers. That way you could add more presets per button press, AND/OR more buttons TO press.

I'm looking into ways to make the trimpots easily set; but without their getting too big, ugly or obtrusive. If we go that route; may as well just do big Frac/Euro style Serge programmers with full size pots everywhere.

Does this sound like a useful module or a waste of time?

.
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Randaleem



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mr Clack wrote:
yes, you say that they are plentiful but they really arn't in the UK or maybe even Europe! maybe it would be easy to modify ? I am very interested in this project but wont be able to build it with some overpriced imported part!


Hi,

Thank you for clarifying your concerns. I am working on many modules besides this one. Plans are to offer PCB's, semi-kits, full kits and completed modules. Front panels, Solid wood Cabinets and full synths even.

In this case you'd probably want a semi-kit. That'd be the PCB with the hard-to-find parts included.

More on this as things progress; but I can say that as long as we can legally send the component parts to you, you won't be stifled by not being able to get some part to finish the board.

Randal

EDIT: Based on my previous post re: 13700; I'd planned to have a closer look into the pinouts of the CA3080 vs the 13700 again. Haven't done that yet. Will do so ASAP to see if perhaps a dual layout is possible. Wouldn't hurt us either to have a choice of part to use!
(Did so. not gonna happen. Will stick with 3080's for now.)
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Dave Kendall



Joined: May 26, 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
He said that the 13600 and 13700 were identical to the 3080 with a couple added features due to the then-newly available 16pin dip packaging. They dropped the 3080 circuit directly into the chip twice.


Randal - that's interesting. What's the URL of the article?
There was a recent thread somewhere [sdiy] perhaps? where it was suggested that there were some differences, even if the extra bits on the 13x00 weren't used. (Differences in input currents I think), although the poster who said this wasn't answered definitively.

It's good to know that the 3080 is still available from futurlec, and cheap too! (thanks filterstein)
Reichelt in Germany do them too, but they're pricey at 3.95 euros.
In the UK they are pretty hard to find.

I originally wondered about the 13700 because I hope to still be DIY-ing in 40 years time, and I guess the 3080 will be rare as rocking horse droppings by then, so if it's at all possible to implement, I'd vote for a 13700 option/dual layout type thing.

I certainly plan to grow old disgracefully. Or at least noisily. Wink

cheers,

Dave
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Dave Kendall



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

oops. just seen your last post.....

Quote:
(Did so. not gonna happen. Will stick with 3080's for now.)


Oh well. Futurlec get my money then ......

cheers, and thanks for all your work on this Randal Smile

Dave
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I got most of my diy stuff in cyndustries cases.
So i guess i don't need to worry about the depth.
Good to see the ca3080 is gonna be used in the design!
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Randaleem



Joined: May 17, 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Dave,

Had to go discover it again, here it is:

Don sauer
http://www.idea2ic.com/LM13700.html

But in the process of doing that, found this:

OTA project
http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~lanterma/studentprojects/TeamOTAComparison.pdf

Throwing everything back up in the air!

Randal


Dave Kendall wrote:
Quote:
He said that the 13600 and 13700 were identical to the 3080 with a couple added features due to the then-newly available 16pin dip packaging. They dropped the 3080 circuit directly into the chip twice.


Randal - that's interesting. What's the URL of the article?
There was a recent thread somewhere [sdiy] perhaps? where it was suggested that there were some differences, even if the extra bits on the 13x00 weren't used. (Differences in input currents I think), although the poster who said this wasn't answered definitively.

Dave
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fonik



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Randaleem wrote:
Don sauer
http://www.idea2ic.com/LM13700.html

nice reading, randal.
for the first time i read the whole datasheet then. very exciting. all these application notes...
thank you.

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Randaleem



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Randal wrote:

Within the Frac/Euro format I can panel mount 5 pots per card(*) so a two card set per voice is looking like it makes some sense. I'm looking at how I might separate the functions on these two so that the "extras" are on the 2nd card; making it kinda optional. Core circuit on the 1st board with 5 pots. Add the 2nd for all the goodies. Sounds good; but will it sound good? (And will the resulting panel layout work well and look good?)


Hi,

I'd really like to get some input on this. Please have a look again at the list I posted (previous page) of all the possible panel mounted controls, in/outs, and indicators. And let us know what you think needs to be on the panel.

In fact, I would like to see your ideas for panels. How will you build up this module? Which controls; which jacks?

It would REALLY help me to get some feedback on this while I am laying out the board(s).

Here are a couple pics of the original for inspiration (Each channel is about 4"x10"(100x250mm) on the original) We want to add most all that's in channel 5 to each voice module:

Let's kick it up a notch!

Randal


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elektro80
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Trivia:
I tended to always put a compressor on each synth channel output.
Why?

Obviously the output from the SDS-3 would be level wise all over the place. In order to turn this into a predictable sound source and also to fatten it and pumping it up even further, compression/brickwalling is really called for.

Am I suggesting a compressor on each channel? You decide! Shocked Laughing If so.. a decent iron on the output would be great too.

As for effects.. a step-panner was most effective. Uh.. a step-panner is a simple stereo pan circuit which is triggered by a trip/gate/step/impact input. It is quite stupid as it wil simply go left-right-left-right and so on. A "stereo-width" feature is of course nice to have. Step-panners are basically mono in and stero out. The trig is either based on a trig input with adjustable treshold or internal .. sensing the mono adio-input.


I do actually have a track somewhere using both compressors and step-panners.. but since I´m in Barcelona right now.. I guess I will have to post this one later.

Smacking a tad compression, a tad distortion and a tad reverb on the SDS-3 mic line outputs and then feeding these into step-panners could also be very effective. Imagine the SDS-3 synth sound sitting smack in the mix and then having the mic feed fluttering all over the place. Laughing

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Elektro-80 is in Barcelona (spain) and disconected. He asked me to relay this;

-------------
I do love all the modular synth module ideas re the SDS-3 clone, but
still I do think that the best SDS-3 clone is a selfcontained
instrument ( with some improvements like channel compressors and
possibly channel sidechaining as well ). To me this would be a truly
better SDS-3.

It seems like the consenus is that the SDS-3 sounded goddamned great.
I propose the idea that you haven´t realy heard how fat and
impressive it really can sound unless you have strapped ( nice )
limiters/compressors on the channel outs.

Adding a certain "patchability" would be great too.
-------------------

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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think compression shouldn't be added to the circuit but done with outboard stuff.
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dave_b



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Are you still pursuing this, Randal? Just checking in.
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Randaleem



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Absolutely!

More soon.

Randal
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cooooool!
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dave_b



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here's an SDS2 page that may be of interest (from the Simmons Yahoo list).

http://www.electronic-obsession.se/studio/simmons/sds-2.html

It's a different beast than the later models, but it's interesting to see the evolution.
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ENDIF



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ooh, just clued into this thread.

I have been rocking an SDSV for years now, both sequenced and live.
Booom! Chack! Tsss! Love that thing. Got it racked up, even survived TSA's gentle ministrations (grumble).

Have never played with an SDS3, but the samples on the internets sound awesome! When you get this little fella ready, Randal, consider at least one sold. =]

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simplyanalogue



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Looking forward to the result of this project. Please keep us on the Simmonslist informed too... What you all are talking about are basically the SDS-IV since you plan to omit the effect channel anyway.

I think most Simmons units I own or have owned sounds amazing but I prefer the vintage stuff. Finally I have a SDS-III in the pipeline for myself too.

Up until two weeks ago I owned two SDS-IV's. Here's a short clip I made when selling one of them.
http://www.electronic-obsession.se/studio/simmonssounds/sds4.mp3

No compressor, no FX, just two analogue channels of mayhem...

rookie here... but moderator on yahoogroups... Very Happy
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

simplyanalogue wrote:
rookie here... but moderator on yahoogroups... Very Happy


Wink welcome

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Could anyone pick up this project?
Still love to see a sds3 pcb with the modulation input and perhaps 1 volt/oct cv input.
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simplyanalogue



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just need to say it... Now I have my SDS-III here! Needs some fixing up but what the hell. Looks amazing beside the SDS-IV.
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bubblechamber



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

my drive crashed last fall and I lost all my resource material and the work to date I had done. I'd love to get going again on this, I have a couple of projects to finish up first, but I still want one of these, pretty bad.
David
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Okay!

Anyone wanna do a layout?
I am willing to organize a pcb run etc.
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

To bad no one ever did a pcb for this Beast. Mad
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Damn still no one into doing this?
Ok i am gonna give you guys 3 damn good reasons!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260250660903&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBUAA:GB:1123

http://modular.googlepages.com/sds3.mp3

http://modular.googlepages.com/sds3b.mp3
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I´m expecting great stuff from the Thomas Henry MPS! Very Happy
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