How Much Randomness is Too Much?

Jack_Hertz · Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:58 am Post subject: How Much Randomness is Too Much?

I like to use generative elements in composition, but I find myself struggling with some questions that I wanted to to open up to you all:

How much randomizing is too much?

Is a composition that is 100% randomly generated still a composition?

Where do you draw the line on non-human input?

blue hell · Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:06 pm Post subject:

100% random is white noise I'd think ... which may be a bit boring to serve as music ... at least I'd want to structure that a bit maybe with amplitude changes, and filter it a bit, making it less than 100% random.

I don't really know how much random is actually left in the generative stuff I make, not too much I think ... but it's a balance for me, not enough randomness tends to make repetitive things where all I have available is short sequences .. of say up to 128 steps.

cbm · Joined: Oct 25, 2005 Posts: 381 Location: San Francisco

Constraints are what turns randomness into composition. Every decision can be made randomly, if the constraint framework is in place to make those random decisions interesting. The constraint framework is the score which the random processes improvise upon.

Jack_Hertz · Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:31 pm Post subject:

Good point! 100% would be white noise. Very Happy

I am not exactly sure how to say it. I wonder what others who have bare using noodles, field recordings or other generative sources think about how much of the work is the source and how much is them.

Jack_Hertz · Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:32 pm Post subject:

Jack_Hertz · Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:09 pm Post subject:

FWIW. Not to make a case, just what's on the extreme end. Look at something like WolframTones. If you click that link, it will play something based on no decisions other than to click the link. http://tones.wolfram.com/generate/

cbm · Joined: Oct 25, 2005 Posts: 381 Location: San Francisco

v-un-v · Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:33 pm Post subject:

blue hell · Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:01 pm Post subject:

cbm · Joined: Oct 25, 2005 Posts: 381 Location: San Francisco

Totally agree. My software step sequencer, Gyre, has the ability to control many of these parameters.

blue hell · Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:02 pm Post subject:

Jack_Hertz · Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:31 pm Post subject:

Sometimes you have to decide. Sometimes I find myself starting with something random to give me a choice of possible directions. Which do end up being rules / decisions at some point.

FYI. I wasn't aware of a term, but it was pointed out to me that "Aleatoric Music" is the term for music based on chance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleatoric_music

Jack_Hertz · Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:44 pm Post subject:

Antimon · Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:58 pm Post subject:

I start with something random, and then cut it down by imposing restrictions - making wheighted selectors etc. However, I am often surprised at how little I need to restrict before I start to enjoy it, spending 10 minutes listening to something that is obviously random. I'm easy to please I guess.

/Stefan

[Q] · Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:00 pm Post subject:

Great thread... Thought provoking..

I like Chris' concept of a Constraint Framework. Smile

so I started a new thread so as not to disturb the flow here.

http://electro-music.com/forum/post-344832.html#344832

v-un-v · Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:21 pm Post subject:

underpinned by a rhythmic, and therefore non-random counterpoint, but nether the less, I found it quite fitting to post... (I couldn't find side 1 which I personally prefer!);

-minus- · Joined: Oct 26, 2008 Posts: 787 Audio files: 13

There's always intent behind the decision to use randomness, and I'm not sure that is purely random.

modulator_esp · Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:34 am Post subject:

I like to add a bit of randomness/ chaos to self-generating parts of a performance to make them more interesting

Too much randomness for me would be where the end result is too unpredictable for me to play along

Mongo1 · Joined: Aug 11, 2011 Posts: 411 Location: Raleigh NC

Just my $.02 - the human brain looks for patterns constantly. It needs patterns. If no pattern is present it looks for one anyway. If you give people a sample of white noise and ask "Did you HEAR that?", they will generally believe they DID hear something - maybe it's an alien or a ghost, but they'll find it whether it exists or not.

When the brain cannot find a pattern, it eventually gives up. When you go to the ocean and listen to waves, you relax. I think it's because your brain gives up and finally just decides to switch off a little bit. The same thing happens when any truly random white noise is experienced. The wind in the desert causes the same relaxation.

On the other hand, when the brain is actively searching for a pattern, and it finds one, it relaxes and feels better. But - if the pattern is repeated too much, the brain becomes bored - it starts looking for variation again. If the pattern persists, the brain ignores it and looks for something else.

So it's clearly a balance. The pattern forms the basis, and the randomness keeps it fresh. Our brains seem to be actively engaged only in this middle zone. If there is no pattern, we ignore it. If there is too much of a pattern, we ignore it. I guess that makes sense from a survival skills perspective.

Gary