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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
I need some patching help please
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sheridan



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:33 am    Post subject: I need some patching help please Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi there,

I have been trying to improve a patch that I made a while ago, by adding a switch to give me the option of routing the two filters either in serial or parallel formation. I have managed to do this by inserting a mixer for the two filter outputs and a switch to determine whether filter 2 gets the output signal from the oscilators or from filter 1. (see attached picture)

So far, so good. It seems to work fine. The problem that I'm having is finding a way to get ONE switch to control both the filter routing switch AND whether filter 1's output goes to the amp or not. Does anyone know of any way to do this, or am I just dreaming?


Routing switch.jpg
 Description:
Trying to get 'FltCombin' and 'FiltRouting' to operate from one switch or find alternative way of accomplishing the same end result.
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Routing switch.jpg


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sheridan



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've just figured that I can assign them both to a morph control, but I'd still be interested if there is a 'modular' way to solve this problem.

Many thanks.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

One can always use some logic modules to control multiplexers or switches somehow. I would always use the morph groups for these kinds of things myself though. Maybe it would be a good learning exercise to try it without them. Wink
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Have a look at the value switches and the window switch (all in the 3rd block from the rght in the switches section). These have a blue input that you can hook up to the blue output of another switch which will give you the ability to gang 'm .

Jan.
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sheridan



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks guys. I'll look at those switches in a minute Jan. I've got an even bigger ambition now... I've been trying to set up a filter balance control between the two filters. This can be done easily enough with a cross fader if the filters are in the parallel configuration, but the problem arises when they are set to serial.
Can you think of any way of having a cross fader that has the two filter signals (as if set in parallel) at the extremes, but with the combined (serial) signal at the centre? (As featured on Access Viruses)
I've thought long and hard about it and I think I might be asking a little too much. The closest I have got so far is to have a fader that goes from Filter 1 through to Filter 2 in parallel set up (good so far) and the same fader that goes from Filter 1 to Filter 1 through Filter 2 in serial set up, which isn't bad, but I can't find a way of getting a Filter 2 only sound using this setup.

Any ideas anyone?
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is a modular way to do it, the switch modules are ganged like Jan said. So at the same time filter1’s input is switched from filter2 out/in, the x-fader 2 in is switched from filter1/filter2. This disables the x-fade in serial mode, is that what you want?


filterSwitch.pch2
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sample

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 Filename:  filterSwitch.pch2
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sheridan



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Ian. Very helpful..., but I'm after something a bit more complex:
In your example, when the routing is set to serial, the fader has the same signal on both sides and so is redundant. I've been trying to find a system where there are seperate faders to fade between '2 serial filters to filter 1' and '2 serial filters to filter 2' using window switches to switch them in and out via a morph knob.
I don't think that sounded clear. Basically I want one morph group fader to control the filter balance in 2 different ways depending on the filter routing:
Parallel - cross fader from only filter 1 to only filter 2
Serial - cross fader from only filter 1 to only filter 2 BUT WITH filter 1 through filter 2 at the centre (value 32)
I have tried to think of it in two parts, more like:
Serial - cross fader from only filter 1 to filter 1 through filter 2 (values 0 - 32)
Serial - cross fader from filter 1 through filter 2 to only filter 2 (values 32 - 64) - For this part, I have used a mixer that raises the level of the 'parallel' signal in the 'serial' signal path.
The main problem that I now have is that I need the faders/mixers to only respond to the morph knob either from value 32 - 64, or 0 - 32, ie. I need the parallel level in the serial path to be 0 when the morph knob is at 32. Any ideas?
The overall aim is to be able to hear either filter on its own, regardless of the filter routing. I haven't quite got there yet and could still do with a hand if anyone is able to help.

Many thanks.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This doing "something different" in the middle led me to try a diode module in it's double rectification mode (along with some cross faders and panners). And I tried some configs with this idea, but so far nothing workable came out.

It should be possible as it's imaginable, but it's not very easy (as I first thought). I don't like giving up on things like these, but I have to do some other things right now.

Jan.
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here we go, the knob on the F1-F2 module controls the x-fade between filter1 and filter2. In parallel mode, the other x-fader is set to mix out only (+64), in serial mode, it starts at -64 for knob settings of -64 to 0 then rises to +64 for the remaining rotation. I’ve added a mixer + lfo so the x-fade can be modulated. Both x-faders should be left alone, everything is controlled by the yellow modules.
It is quite an interesting setup, thanks for the idea.


filterSwitch2.pch2
 Description:
x-fade filter routing

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 Filename:  filterSwitch2.pch2
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Last edited by ian-s on Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:19 pm; edited 2 times in total
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sheridan



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks again Ian for taking the time to help out. After examining your patch for some time, I'm still at a bit of a loss as to exactly how it works.
Please let me know if I have got this right... the rectifier gets rid of all negative motion of the F1-F2 knob? So wouldn't a signal of 0 become -64, then -128, or a signal of 1 become -63, then -126? What is the 'x2' module for? I understand the constant of 64 for parallel mode to decide filter 2's input, but I got a bit lost about this bit in serial mode. What is the overall output range from the F1-F2, LevAdd1, LevAmp1 combination?
Thanks again.
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Embarassed I got the order of the amp and add wrong, the output of the rect is a strait line zero for the negative half of rotation, the positive half gets multiplied by two so it goes from 0 to 128, then add -64 offset.
So in serial mode, the main fader x-fades between the two filter outputs as before, for the 1st half filter2's input comes from filter1, in the second half, this input fades from filter1 out to mix out.


Sorry about that. (patch updated)

Edit: Just changing the settings on the 1st x-fader eliminates the need for the multiply and offset Embarassed Embarassed
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Even better! Thanks again. It definitely sounds like it's doing what it's supposed to be doing, but there are a couple more things (if you have the patience)...
Firstly, and again I could be wrong, but if the F1-F2 knob is set anywhere from 1 to 64 in serial mode, the x-fade 2 mod input gets a signal of 1 to 64, which means that the x-fade will also have a value of 1 to 64, doesn't it? That means that the signal that goes into filter 2 will be made up of both filter 1's input and output doesn't it? I know it's a bit pedantic, but I like to understand these things. Would inserting a 'x2' amp just before the x-fade 2 module make it go from -64 to 64?
Secondly, there is quite a large (but understandable) difference in volume, between the two extremes and the centre of the F1-F2 knob. It helped a little when I switched the two x-fade modules to log mode, but can you think of any (simple) way of maintaining a more even level throughout the transition between F1 and F2?
Thanks once again for all your efforts... I'm picking up loads of good tips!
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wouldn´t this do?

Patched it up without actually loading it, but I think it will work.

Over the fist half of the knob range it crossfades from F1 to F2 (which gets it´s input from F1 at that point) then for the second half it crossfades F2´s input from the out of F1 to the clean signal.

No morphs used or needed, it´s mainly about the operations on the controll signal.

NM, but the question is the exact same for the G2 as are the modules so this should pose no problem. Since no feedback is involved a G2 version may have slightly less phase issues, some short delay may be needed to compensate on the NM if that´s considered important. I believe that all volume issues this one may have should be caused by the filters, amps can be used to compensate for the difference in volume; one amp per filter, depending on how much it turns out to decrease volume for speciffic material. Of cource a compressor will do nicely too.


filter.pch
 Description:
possible solution to the filter puzzle?

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 Filename:  filter.pch
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:

It should be possible as it's imaginable,


The Clavia´s are wonderfull, but let´s not exagerate here!
;¬p

Quote:

but it's not very easy (as I first thought). I don't like giving up on things like these, but I have to do some other things right now.


No, I puzzled about it for a hour or so too while I realy should be doing more usefull stuff right now. It´s a nice challenge and the trick may come handy later.

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sheridan



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK I think I've got it at last! I've made a few alterations. When in serial mode, with the F1-F2 knob in the center, the signal I was hoping to get was the F1 THROUGH F2 signal, not the output of F1 mixed with the output of F2. So I inserted a few 'x2' Amp modules and a Lev Add module, changing the positions of the x-fade knobs. Now what (I think) I have is a filter balance knob that does the following:
Serial mode:
-64 to -1 : Filter 1 out to Filter 1 through Filter 2
0 : Filter 1 through Filter 2
1 to 64 : Filter 1 through Filter 2 to Filter 2 out
So far so good... that's as I wanted it. Then I realised that that messed up the parallel settings, so I had to insert a Value switch that removed the 'x2' LevAmp from the path, controled by the Mode switch. So now I have:
Parallel mode:
-64 to -1 : Filter 1 out to Filter 1 and Filter 2
0 : Filter 1 and Filter 2
1 to 64 : Filter 1 andFilter 2 to Filter 2 out
Just as I wanted! (I think) I've attached a sreen grab, so if anyone could verify it, that would be great.

Now I'm looking into including a 'split' mode in the filter mode switch... two oscilators to one filter and oscilator 3 and noise through the other filter. Feel free to experiment with this idea (and come up with a better solution than I probably will) and post any patch revisions, as I will. Very Happy


Filter balance.jpg
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Alterations in blue. Minus LFO for simplification.
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Filter balance.jpg


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sheridan



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey thanks Kassen, I must have been writing that last reply while you were... unfortunately, that is a .pch file, which my G2 doesn't recognise. Also a case of bad timing I'm afraid - I think I've solved the problem too (see last post). You could turn your attention to the 'split' mode problem mentioned above if you have a moment. The 3 oscs and noise that I was referring to are on the patch that I am trying to 'update', not the one in the given example above.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, the G2 can´t load PCH files, only PCH2. I´m not sure I understood all of the question since I have switch to make them go paralel. I could add one, that´s not too hard now and your question about the third mode comes down to pan modules; one for each sound source (so four in total) with some more logic. You´d put the filter the individual source needs to go to on the right hand side of the pan (the other one to the left), put pan in the middle, open the mod and give all four the same yellow cable that goes hot when this mode is engaged; aside from that it´s identical to the paralel one, give or take a few mixers for overhead.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks again Kassen, but I only need to add a few switches and split the mixers using this patch as an example. (see attached pic) Now I just have to try and fit it all into my patch!!
It sounds like it works properly, but can you please tell me if you think it looks right.
(ignore redundant LevAmp bottom left)


Filter split.jpg
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Connected so switch alters values going to x-fade1 according to mode.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Now it´s all getting quite complicated! I didn´t find anything wrong with it just now but some of that cabeling is a little confusing. I think I get your overall strategy and I agree with that one.

There´s realy no need to look at my pch for you since the solution for the serial thing is the same, I think. The NM editor is free though and you may like to install it just to be able to look at patches; I have a G2 one here too for the same reason. Frankly now I can´t imagine why I didn´t make my example in the G2´s editor in the first place.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Sheridan

The reason for my mistake with the X2 module was I incorrectly assumed that you need -64 through +64 modulation on a x-fade module, to go from hard left to hard right.
It seems they are designed to work directly with logic level outputs (0-64) so if the main knob is hard left, 0 = input 1 only, 64 = input 2 only. With a centred main knob, -32 through +32 gives full modulation. More than 32 or less than -32 have no further effect.

Good luck with your split mode BTW.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OOOOOOPS

I made the same asumption, Ian (asuming it´s the same for the NM). That would save a few amps.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think there's a simpler way to do this. Check out the 'building block' patch I sent in a while ago:

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-5188.html

This one uses a knob to gradually fade from parallel to serial filter routing, but you could substitute a logic signal for the Constant knob to create a switching response.

BTW, I think the key you are missing is in the settings of the controls on the two crossfader modules - the one that determines the INPUT to the second filter needs to crossfade two signals completely (100% OSCS to 100% Filter1 OUT), but the crossfader that determines the final mix needs to fade from 50/50 mix of filter1+filter2 to 100% filter2.

I use this circuit a lot. I think using the knob to gradually fade from parallel to serial gives you a lot of versatility. Check out an example in the patch "Big Par-Ser PadA".

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Ian, thanks for pointing that out... but what does that mean? It all seems to work as it is supposed to now.

Dave, if you read the description of what I have been trying to achieve, you'll see that I want different signals through the second fader, depending on which mode the filter is in. As it is, I have just about achieved that and now I'm trying to incorporate it into a patch of mine with an extra 'split mode'. I did have a simpler system before, not too different from yours, but I'm quite new to this and basically am experimenting. Thanks for the interest though.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It does? That´s not how I read the problem, I thought we were going from F1 to both to F2 through pure serial which basically requirers your solution but with some extra CV manipualtions and independant controll of the crossfaders. The CV manipulations in mine could have been done more efficiently, I admit.

Once we are actually going to listen to this, instead of just theorising about the controll some atention will need to be paid to phase issues, particularly where two pole filters are concerned; the signal coming from F1 and going around F2 should probably be inverted in that case depending wether they share cutoff frequencies.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

To be clear: In SERIAL mode, I want the 'filter balance' knob to go from (osc mix through filter 1 only) to (osc mix through filter 1 THEN filter 2) in the central position, then on to (osc mix through filter 2 only). Not (osc mix through filter 1 AND osc mix through filter 2) in the central postion - this behaviour is only for PARALLEL and SPLIT modes.

As it is, I have now managed to incorporate this into my earlier patch (see attched pic). It all seems to work ok, although I'm still not really sure about what Ian was saying about the mod levels. It's an extremely busy patch, built to give me as much control as possible using my controller device instead of the mouse - the filter section is in yellow. It's a bit hard to follow the cables... sorry.

Kassen, I have tried inserting an invert module (highlighted in attached pic), but am not sure if it is an improvement or not. Is that where you were talking of putting it?

When I'm sure this patch is all working ok, I'll be posting it on another topic that I have at the moment. I'll let you know when if anyone is interested... I suppose I could post it here too. Very Happy


Filter routing incorporated.jpg
 Description:
Filter section is Yellow, on right. Sorry, but I had to put the modules as they are, so that I could see all of the important (controller editable) parameters in the first 4 columns, ie. so I could just ignore the 5th column when sound creating.
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