Buy Classic modular or keep 2 G2's?

Kassen · Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:26 pm Post subject:

Edit; I take this back.

Instead I'd encourage everybody interested to try and repeat my findings. After that we can talk.

jksuperstar · Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:42 pm Post subject:

Kass - I think the larger price on the 1616m is more associated with the ADC's than the DACs (those freaky high end AKM converters with >120db SNR ). Still, as with all things "high-end" they have a higher overhead in price as well Smile

Not to stay on this well beaten path, but I wonder if anyone has ever looked at the clocking structure of the G2's. Jitter causes more high freq. garbage and inharmonic junk than nearly anything else. It may be the cause of your distress.

cebec · Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:52 pm Post subject:

In the end, though, I think a better test would be a side by side comparison with the 1820 or 1616 (non-'m' models) running the G2 Demo, and a G2 KB.

But yeah, it could be the clock, the implementation of the converter, and choice of op-amps, etc., rather than the converter itself that is responsible for the phenomena Kassen says he can hear.

How could we look at the G2's clocking structure, or any audio interface's clocking structure, if we wanted to? The data sheet for the CS4392 states high tolerance to clock jitter/low sensitivity to clock jitter, which is the same thing. If we grant that, then hypothetically the G2s clock would have to be really bad, more of us would hear it, most likely.

I think most almost all of this is on topic, however.

When I compared the NM Classic to the G2 using my ears and plots, I found the NM Classic a bit grainier and a little beefier than the G2 which sounded more detailed and open. It's become relatively easy for me to add the girt and beef to a G2s sound character that you get on the NM Classic.

As for my examinations of the FFT plots, the aliasing on both systems was identical, and repeatable, with little variation, in/on other digital synths (Reaktor, Bidule, Max/MSP, VAZ Modular).

So, this is what I hear and what I see when I've compared the two synths...

Use your own judgment, of course. An NM Classic won't set you back that much and you're likely to make your money back if you decide it's not for you.

elektro80 · Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:56 pm Post subject:

For the record, I have had similar discussions re how one specific analog synth sounds compared with another. There were often very obvious differences even in cases when the products shared used almost the same components. I think this info kassen is sharing with us is very interesting, but it might be that this DAC issue or whatever this is about could be contained inside a new thread. Or not..
Re the "Buy Classic modular or keep 2 G2's?" - I love the NM-1. It sounds crude and cosy and even warm. I am using it mainly for those Roland 100M and 700 patches and even for some Formant style noises. It is an excellent product.

elektro80 · Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:57 pm Post subject:

Yes, it might not exactly be just simply about the DACs. I wonder how the demo will sound using the latest Echo firewire interfaces?

Kassen · Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:59 pm Post subject:

JKS;

Yes, I was quite pleased with the specs on those ADC's :¬). I haven't tried testing those yet but I'm quite pleased with it overall. Ok, I'm not pleased with E-MU messing up the on board "test tone generator" nor am I pleased with the lack of a reply to my bug-report on this but the bits that actually matter are top notch

I have to admit that I didn't considder jitter yet Embarassed

you may well be right. The trouble is that i`m not entrily sure I can even test for that here and now. It's a beaten path for sure, but at least we are on the beaten path with new data and new ideas.

Kassen · Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:07 pm Post subject:

cebec · Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:13 pm Post subject:

mosc · Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:55 pm Post subject:

I downloaded the G2 Demo and can't hear too much difference. Maybe because I run my G2 though the same MOTU 828MKII interface as the computer uses. Kassen, please post the patch that sounds so different to you. Have you considered that your particular G2 has a problem?

jksuperstar · Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:19 pm Post subject:

Kassen · Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:24 pm Post subject:

Kassen · Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:37 pm Post subject:

jksuperstar · Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:19 am Post subject:

Not that you'd kill yourself over loud mp3's. But imagine the agony you feel at hearing these high pitched sounds NEVER GOING AWAY.

The friend who looked into it didn't suffer from tinitus, but his brother did. But he was studying brain programming techniques, and looking for a (method/theory/technique) that might help reprogram the brain to avoid this high frequency loop, that often causes headaches and real pain. Part of his theory was that tinitus wasn't actually generated by the ear, but by the brain itself (the inital cause however was extended over stimulation by the ear). The brain usually is good at filtering out constant stimulation (you don't usually hear that clock ticking in the corner of your room, but your friends do since they aren't always exposed to it like you are). But if it gets traumatic levels of stimulation, it can end up re-wiring itself and possibly causing a loop (his theory was based on the chain reaction timing of neurons firing, and in a small loop it would equal a high frequency pitched sound).

So, unless you start experiencing this all the time, I don't think you're at risk Smile

The physical cause of the pain might be different, but I can imagine that at the moment you do feel it, it would be a similar sensation (as in "I *really* don't want to be listening to this right now!!!").

paul e. · Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:37 am Post subject:

Afro88 · Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:04 am Post subject:

Wasn't someone working on a way to hack into the digital path before the DAC's so they could get a digital spdif output? I wonder what happened with that... Could be the solution to all the DAC issues people are hearing.

Also, I'd like to point out that if all you want a classic for is harder edged sounds and to test out and learn from patches in the archive, you'd do well to buy a micro mod. They go pretty cheap on ebay these days, and can run all patches just with a quarter the polyphony - no need to sell the second G2!

seraph · Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:06 am Post subject:

Tim Kleinert · Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:27 am Post subject:

I have perfect pitch. And yes, having to perform on beaten pianos in music venues is an agonizing experience (although the maladjusted keyboard actions are even more frustrating).

I can also not stand MP3 and especially ATRAC (Minidisc) for too long. (With MP3 it's the frequency content and with ATRAC it's the transients that bother me.)

I also had a problem with the "G2 sound" for quite some time. However, that problem has disappeared since I use a new and very good amplification system (Kling&Freitag CA1001 SP -one of those dudes costs more than a G2!), and -far more important- since I've got better at patching!!

Kassen · Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:26 am Post subject:

Kassen · Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:32 am Post subject:

Acidfever · Joined: Aug 25, 2004 Posts: 49

Kassen · Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:54 am Post subject:

Kassen · Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:56 am Post subject:

dasz · Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:36 pm Post subject:

The reason to keep/have 2 G2's is midi.

imagine g2 #1 is the clock master. But it's patches also control the patches in the 2nd g2 (patch change events), and you have a cuelist which changes patches after some long time (clocked gate) ...

you have design with a sequencer which mutes the 2nd synth (fade out), and then send pc event, then you have the volume to bring it up...

then you load the patch into the 2nd g2. it's midi out control is muted, until the 1st g2 finishes it's control period. then the 2nd g2's midi out starts to control the 1st g2's midi in. the roles are reversed (but the clock is controlled from 1st g2)... so bpm is important to tweak between perfs with diff bpms ...

You see, my G2's are more like turntables or a master synth with mixer and RS7000 and G2 #2 for grooves ... rs7000 is the clock master ... i can tweak the bpm in +/-0.1 BPM or tap it ...

You see, papa nord did not do midi out and this was it's downfall, as was the inclusion of delay based FX into the g2 for me ... to have both of them you have 8 inputs and 8 outpus ... this is nicer than 6 inputs and 6 or 8 outputs (g2 + micro-or-NM1Key) .. and with 2 g2's you have control swapping ... midi control swapping ...

Some good crazy bass stuff is going on right now... a patch called Four_DZ
on a beautiful day (see http://www.katkam.ca at noon PST)

My set hopes to include some of this stuff ... I'll perform it and describe it at NordWest06.
/Dasz

[editor's note: Papa Nord is Dasz' endearing term for the NM Classic or the NM1. --mosc]

dasz · Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:05 pm Post subject:

I do miss Papa Nord (thanks Howard for the editor's note Wink

) ... but it is in good hands ...

and the truth is I did not use it since the G2 arrived ... and the number of innovative patches made in the G2, completely overshadow what I did in Papa Nord.

/Dasz
ps.: My favorite Env? AHD Mod!

cebec · Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:26 pm Post subject: