Madisound Studio Monitor kits

[jksuperstar]

I have been toying with getting some nice speakers for my studio. Currently I have some Yamaha bookshelf speakers, that translate well to other systems, but don't really paint the whole picture. I'm checking out some various nearfield and other "small" powered systems, 7" and smaller, since I like the tight transients they produce and the image created by this. I'm not interested in excessively small woofers...no bass is just as worthless as a shitty image.

Any way, always considering what *I* can do myself, I checked out what Madisound offers in kit form, since I've used them for speakers I've built in the past. These guys have been doing speakers for 20 years, working with some of today's more famous speaker designers to develop kits and crossovers for the person looking to get their hands dirty in order to afford a superior sound system. Most kits they have are based on Seas, Vifa, and the likes, and once used Dynaudio drivers when they used to be available to dealers.


So I'm posting this as 1/2 question, and 1/2 raising awareness. The only thing I wish was that they had a matched & built-in amplifier(s), but I do trust their crossover designs. They don't mess around. Here's my considered model:

http://madisound.com/vifastudio.html

[elektro80]

I will check it out. Is this a closed cabinet design? Seems like it.

[jksuperstar]

it has a 6" resonator (speaker without the coil) on the rear...but my studio is well damped, so I'm not overly worried about the 1-2 feet (.5m) away from the wall.

[elektro80]

I have seen similar designs for sale here in Norway. I will read the spec sheets for the drivers and see if I can figure out what this is.

It is however mentioned here that this is a bookshelf speaker. A passive radiator on the back then seems weird, unless they have calculated with the bass bost. This radiator is simplay another way to "vent" the box and making the cabinet acoustically larger.. in order to extend the bass some.

Are there any frequency plots for the finished design available? A frequency and impedance plot is what I hope to see. It is possible to find such for the actual drivers, and I was hoping to see some plots for the finished product. That way we will know some about what the box does.

As for room damping vs. acoustic treatment, do you have any bass traps?

[jksuperstar]

My entire room is non-symmetrical, with double-walled structure, carpeted wall-to-wall and ceiling to floor, then covered with acoustic material. photo here--


Looked into another possibility here (this is a bit more flexible, since the guy who designed the crossover added the option of tuning the tweeter/brightness:
http://madisound.com/ar_com.html

As far as freq. response, this is a kit, so I think it's difficult for them to provide anything reliable. For the high end above the crossover, the response is basically the tweeter, there is no attempt by this speaker to draw out the high freq. with a special horn or guide, and I'll be using them as nearfield anyways. As the builder you have the option of using the wool stuffing, or changing the fill density (more/less wool) or other material altogether to tune the woofer. With the resonator, there's also the option of adding weight physically to damp it and drop it's frequency as well. I have a calibrated sound meter for measurements, and these days you can emulate many of the functions MLSSA used to do with most of our studio software. This is definitely a DIY project, with a strong assist from cabinet maker, speaker selection, and crossover designers.

My next thought is amp. I currently have a Sampson Servo 400. In driving these transients, I might want something with more power to spare, but that'll have to wait until I decide to go this DIY route over active monitors.

[elektro80]

Do you have a floorplan .. measurements in meters?
How thick is that foam stuff? How high is the ceiling?

[jksuperstar]

I wrote in to madisound asking for freq. and imp. plots....

[elektro80]

Trivia: A full foam clad room is rarely ideal. The foam will dampen the highs and mids. Adding some reflective surfaces behind you, possibly a hard diffusor.. and possible some sheets of paper or whatever around you might imrpove things a bit. Still bass problems will not be "solved" by the foam. Real basstraps might still be needed. There is rarely such a thing as too many bass traps. You can make such yourself. Basically these are panels. I will find some links for you later on. I am making a new set of such for my own studio right now too.

The drivers used in the Madison Studiio Monitors are quite good. Decent specs and they seem to be far far better than what you would find in Behringer and similar low end studio monitors.

The room is quite small, isn´t it?

[jksuperstar]

I don't depend on the foam for low end damping. The shape of the room does that -- on each side of the room, there's odd shaped shelves that prevent standing waves, and the window is a double pane with an inverse "V" shape, which also prevents standing waves with the rear wall. The door is a double door (can't see the other that opens out in that pic), and when closed, I can hear my heart beating. In fact, even with the door open I can't hear my door bell ring upstairs (studio is in a basement).

No dimensions yet, but here's the basics (~4mx4.5m):

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[jksuperstar]

Well, I was worried about the crossover point that had the dip in the woofer, and the beginning of the tweeter roll-off. And it turns out that's the biggest dip in the spectrum -- about 2-3db.

They just sent me the freq. plots:

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[elektro80]

For some reason I feel this plot doesn´t tell the full story, but it looks nice though.
An alternative might be something like the Yamaha MSP5. Carlo has these and I have used these a lot myself too. These would be excellent for your studio I think.

[elektro80]

The MSP5 is not made anymore, but I have seen some shops still selling these. The price is nice.

[jksuperstar]

much different from the MSP5a? These seem to be current and widely available.

[elektro80]

right.. the MSP5a
Supposedly these are not produced anymore. ..And still available... great! You should try these. They are reasonably accurate, the stereo imagery is very good and the tonal balance is quite good. For the price these are mindblowing. They main point is that these are fun, musical and "accurate".
The dispersion is very good and this makes them perfect as near fields.

[elektro80]

Carlo??

Shoot some coffee and then tell us what you think..

[jksuperstar]

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/rec/navigation?q=msp5a

$500us per pair
(same price as the kit)..

[elektro80]

Theoretically, the actual drivers in the kit might be "better" or equal to what you find in the MSP5a, but then again.. the MSP5a design is pretty awesome.

[jksuperstar]

As far as I see, the MSP advantages are built in amplifier, tunable crossover, and known performance

The kit I'd expect to have better components, but that's all I know.

I'll go listen to the MSP5a tomorrow.

BTW - my favorite CD for speaker "testing" is Flim & the BB's "Tricycle". I've yet to hear another recording with as much play with dynamics. Though the drums are a bit "soft". Good mix of drums, keys, bass, sax, guitar. It wasn't until years later I found it out was recorded by Philips specifically to show off CDs.

For mix, I like David Byrne/Brian Eno "My Life in the Bush of Ghosts". Lots of odd things that layer up in a specific and identifiable order, that I can see anyways.

[elektro80]

That Madison kit might be just what you need. It is hard to say really. The frequency plot looks very good. The bass rolloff is very controlled and far better than I expected. The drivers are probably very nice. That Samson PA amp is probably not the best, but then most of the built in amps in budget powered speakers aren´t really that good either.
I am sure buillding these won´t be difficult. There is little you can mess up that you cannot fix later on.

[jksuperstar]

I know you've spent a few hours tracking down every comment made on the web regarding those kits...thanks for your time & insight Stein.

I'll still check out those MSP5a's, but I'm really tempted by the kit. I've designed and built several speakers in my life, and it is a big joy to go through the process and to listen to the result in the end. My best attempt was designing a 12" subwoofer for a friend in college that ended up as a coffee table (it was 11ft^3 volume). He was nervous about it when I handed him the plans for the "cabinet", but he built it, and we all had very big grins when it was fired up.

[mosc]

You guys probably know this, but there are so many ways to measure the frequency and phase of a speaker or mic that you have to take any plots you get from manufacturers with a couple of pounds of salt. The only way to compare speakers is to listen to them, unfortunately. Response charts might be useful for comparing products made by the same manufacturer, especially if they are reputable. This is because they generally will use the same tests for all of the products. For example, looking at Neuman's charts of their mics would be informative to see some of the differences between their different models, but comparing the charts from two differnent manufacuters is like recreating a sunset from two different observers' descriptions.

Just my opinion.

[jksuperstar]

I agree Howard. In this case, it's very difficult to understand what I'd hear, but I can reference other monitors that use similar components, at least for certain frequency ranges (parts where the crossover doesn't operate, or ignoring the bass component while listening to the upper registers). Like I said, I've used this company for parts before, and the results have always been beyond expectation. This however would be my first kit from them, and honestly I trust them to do a better job than me

Anyway, a second fellow over at madisound.com sent some more info/suggestions:

[jksuperstar]

Lucky Day!!

I dropped down to Guitar Center to check out the msp5, and whatever else they had lined up. Which turned out to be the msps, HS50M, HS80M, Event ASP8, Dynaudio BM6, M-audio BX5a and 6a, KRK Rockits, Mackie 824, and a pair of Blue Sky SAT6.5.

Well, immediately the M-Audio completely turned me off (my shitty bookshelf sound 2x as good!). After 10 seconds of listening, the KRK Rockit 8's and Rockit 5's also turned me off. They were very boomy in lower mid range, and drums just sounded unnatural through them. No good.

The Mackie's were ok, but for the price, when compared to the others, didn't do much better than the Yamaha HS80M. Which was pretty clean, but lacked a certain clarity, when compared to the Event and Dynaudio. The MSP5s where clean, but I landed on the Event ASP8's and got stuck there.

The Event ASP8 was probably the best over all, but then I checked out the Blue Sky pair. Even though these are spec'd to be matched with a woofer (which wasn't on!), and roll off at 80Hz, what's interesting is that they have the SAME TWEETER that the Madisound kit offers. The dual-ring was unmistakable. And CLEAR. Holy Shit. I've finally had that experience where I've heard a whole load of things on a CD that I've never heard before. All the loop clicks on "Mea Culpa" (Eno/Byrne "My Life...") where completely unmistakable, and the layering of vocals and samples was amazing. The transients on "Tricycle" (Flim & the BB's) were "right there" (I hate that phrase, but I could point out where each instrument was clearly in the mix without hesitation). Of course these speakers had a roll-off of 80Hz, which was very noticeable when I switched to the ASP8 (which I ultimately fell down to comparing these two over & over again...luckily, all the speakers where on an ABCDE..kind of switch). And the ASP8's painted a very convincing picture, but those Blue Sky's rally excelled at the high end.

I think I'm sold on the kit now. WOW.

[elektro80]

[klangumsetzer]

hi,

i am also looking at monitors and from the specs/reviews find the hsm80/50 interesting. also the genelec 8020 was recommended to me. Clarity is the most important parameter for me. i do not need bass below 50 hz. what's your opinion?


best regards

eike
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