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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Thomas Henry designs
My twin SN-Voice
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Adam-V



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the feedback guys.

The cramped nature of the design is an unfortunate drawback in the Doepfer styling. The pots are on a grid of 0.8" vertically in order to squeeze 5 of them into the available space which does not leave a lot of room between them.

The bodies on the knobs I intend using are a lot narrower than their skirts - about 9mm in diameter. I'm actually thinking of replacing all of my Doepfer knobs with these as they still offer a nice amount of control but give more room between the pots for my fat fingers. They are available at Dick Smith (See right hand side of the image) -> http://www.dse.com.au/cgi-bin/dse.storefront/en/product/P7126
But I'm hunting around to see if I can get them any cheaper elsewhere.

The Jack and switch labels may well be a bit close; I haven't actually printed this out to check the tolerances yet.

Cheers,
Adam-V
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Funky40



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Adam-V wrote:


The bodies on the knobs I intend using are a lot narrower than their skirts - about 9mm in diameter. They are available at Dick Smith (See right hand side of the image) ->

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

Yeah, i'm looking ecactly for something like that.
Actualy i began to use the Knobs from my broken Behringer8000 desk ( so maybe it will never be repaired Wink )
But this Behringer ones just fit on one kind of axle, and not on the Doepfer pots.

they on the left seems to be cliff, the small one on the right also ?



Adam-V wrote:
I'm actually thinking of replacing all of my Doepfer knobs with these as they still offer a nice amount of control but give more room between the pots for my fat fingers.


Not thought bevore to exchange also the Knobbs on the doepfer modules. but it's a very good Idea.
I have no fat fingers, but not enough space for fast twiddling as well
Have you tested them on the Doepfer pots ?
Ahh, i see:
Quote:
Shaft Type: 6mm Knurled Push Fit.


edit: have openend a own thread about this
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fonik



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

State Machine wrote:
Last resort, if you have a spare 76477, drop it in but only if you are sure it will not be damaged by 15 volts being shorted to it or something like that. . These CSG chips are fairly old and the silicon die may have "grown" in some contamination. Not unheard of.
Not to worry, we will get it working!
Bill

hi bill, just wanted to let you know:
dancing
yes, it's working! i replaced the accidently used 1k resistors by the 10k and voila: it didn't do anything.
than i took my spare sn76477 and now it's working. great! i am so happy. everything's fine now, but the tri out: nothing still. i will look after that issue next week.
now it's time to paaaaaarty!

thank you very much, bill.

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Dan Lavin



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Possible New Function for the SN-Voice?

While looking thru my old Polyphony magazine collection last night, I found a review of the old Blacet Syn-Bow which is based on the SN76477. Unfortunately, the article only has a block diagram and not a schematic. I emailed John Blacet a few years back and he said he lost the schematic.

Anyway, the block diagram shows the SN76477 output feeding a diode VCA, then a 3080, then a TL071, then the most curious part: a pot voltage divider to ground) feeding back to pin 28 on the SN76477 label "Sub octave". I don't know about you folks, but that sounds like an awesome feature to add!

Now according to the SN76477 data sheet, pin 28 is the envelope select?!? I'm not sure how a suboctave with that is supposed to work. According to the reviewer, he says that pin 28 is"normally a digitally programmed pin on the TI chip. This is essence multiplexes the normal square wave output with a suboctave of itself." He also goes on and states: " one limitation of the way the suboctave is derived is that its contribution to the sound will die away before the main wave at longer decay settings. Also, at narrow pulse width settings, the suboctave circuit won't trigger properly and does more harm than good by nearly muting all the signal."

Anyway, there it is for anyone to experiment with. I must confess my SN Voices are currently 3rd in line for projects, so I'm in no shape to try this out myself.
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State Machine
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
yes, it's working! i replaced the accidently used 1k resistors by the 10k and voila: it didn't do anything.
than i took my spare sn76477 and now it's working. great! i am so happy. everything's fine now, but the tri out: nothing still. i will look after that issue next week.
now it's time to paaaaaarty!


Awesome ! Thats great news ! Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy The tri output seems like an easy fix ........ Good luck and have fun !

Bill
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para



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

so i finally got my SN together and everything is working right (i think) except for the PWM switch and the noise section. neither of them do anything. i've quadruple checked my wiring and parts etc.. and i'm obviously missing something. anyone have any wild guesses as to what i might have done wrong here. or steps to tracking it down

the pulse audio does work when switched but no noise at all.

the PWM switch has no effect either. i did add a 100k attenuator from the switch to j3-3 just to get some more range of use. so its the single pin of the switch to the center pin of the pot, then one of the outside pins of the pot to J3-3 and the other to ground. also added a switchable cap to the noise filter to get more range with it too ( added two caps to the envelope as well and its working great, nice percussion env etc... ). but these shouldn't be an issue at all right?



thanks in advance for any suggestions,
steven
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para



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

oh and i denormaled the lfo from the linear fm. could that be an issue? i just didn't like the idea of it being fixed, i'd rather have it patchable.
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State Machine
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
the pulse audio does work when switched but no noise at all.


If there is no noise, check the noise clock from the PLL IC. make sure that is oscillating.

A scope would help there.

Bill
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State Machine
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
the PWM switch has no effect either


Place the PWM switch in the LFO position and listen for any change in the sound produced. If not, set the LFO to various rates and take a look with an oscilloscope at PIN 19 of the SN76477 IC, there should be activity there.

Bill
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para



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i get nothing from the pll's vco out at pin 4 or pitch input at pin 19 on the SN. also checked j2-10 for the env and j3-6 for the lfo feeding the pwm switch and nothing there either. the 5vdc was present though and i know the env and the lfo do work via their output jacks feeding other modules
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sounds to me like you've either got a bad chip, or that your soldering is inadequate (ie the dreaded dry joint). Re-solder the points, using high quality desoldering braid. This stuff is so much better than a pump Very Happy

I remember that the SN76477 was highly sensitive to static electricity. You may have fried it while popping it into the board Question Exclamation

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para



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

well my soldering is patient, clean and usually gone over twice ( tinning everything, heat, what for flow, let solidify and then heated again ) if there is any speculation at all, so i have confidence in that ( been at it for about 15 years ). at the same time as building the SN (actually did 3 boards total but i haven't wired the others up yet, ran out of pots) i built 3 of the bugbrand XR's and they all worked right away. i also never insert chips into their sockets until all the soldering has been finished but i did add the 444's and the 4046's before i finished the wiring. maybe i should try to change them out first because i have extras. i hope the SN isn't messed up. i only had the one wide body right now and it was the very last thing i added but it was delivered in a tiny piece of plastic IC tubing and not a static bag from unicorn elec? i don't want to blame the chips yet because i do make mistakes often so i'll try back tracking from those area's in a bit



maybe i never figured out how to use braid correctly but the suckers work so much better for me once i figured the timing out. the braid just ends up smearing solder everywhere and taking forever when it does work


steven
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

para wrote:



the braid just ends up smearing solder everywhere and taking forever when it does work




Funny, I've never had that experience. Braid has always worked for me, and given me exceptionally clean end results Confused

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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ahh, a 'wide body' version? As far as my memory serves me, they were the most prone Shocked
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IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
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State Machine
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK, sounds as if there are a couple of problems here so your troubles are related to multiple things going on. We will have to break this down into several approaches and solve one problem at a time.

Quote:
I get nothing from the pll's vco out at pin 4


OK, make sure Q3 and Q4 are oriented correctly and all the P-N junctions are each approximately one diode drop.

Check for wrong components.

Next, check U3-8 for a change in voltage as you adjust VC NOISE and INIT potentiometers. It will not be a large swing as the amplifier is actually inverting and attenuating. Also check that the Q3 and Q4 emitter drive at U3-14 varies in accordance with the change in INIT and VC NOISE adjustment.

Check that C5 is properly connected and that it is indeed 470 pF.

Make sure pin 5, INHIBIT, is actually grounded.

Make sure VCO IN at pin 9 is connected to 5 VDC, pin 16.

Is pin 16 really 5 VDC?

If this all looks good, try another CD4046 IC.

Try these first and lets get this section working.

What test instruments do you own? Do you have an oscilloscope? A DVM?

OK, let me know how you do with these suggestions.

Bill

Last edited by State Machine on Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
maybe i never figured out how to use braid correctly but the suckers work so much better for me once i figured the timing out. the braid just ends up smearing solder everywhere and taking forever when it does work


With braid, I usually start with a fresh segment and put some RMA FLUX onto it. I preheat my solder pad then use the solder braid. I find the flux and preheating aids in the wicking process. The key to NOT spreading the solder all over is that you always need to use fresh braid on each joint.

If a large ground plane exists, heat the board with a hair dryer or , better yet, a craft embossing gun. I prefer the embossing gun. All crafting stores sell them (Micheal's, AC Moore, or Jo Anne fabrics). They usually sell for about $25.00 dollars but are well worth it and lots cheaper than commercial heat guns specially used for the electronic industry. Just be careful not to burn plastic parts. If you need, use tin foil as a shield to protect those plastic components when heating your board. Ground planes will just end up sucking all the heat from the joint when trying to remove components and really make things difficult. Large planes are you enemy when it comes to reworking/repairing your boards.

If you get a joint that just won't wick up, just add flux and re-solder the joint, then, while still hot, immediately try to use the braid on it again.

I hope these removal techniques help in your efforts.

Sounds as though our moderator, Tom, has been using the correct technique Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Happy soldering ......... Wink
Bill
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

State Machine wrote:
Quote:
maybe i never figured out how to use braid correctly but the suckers work so much better for me once i figured the timing out. the braid just ends up smearing solder everywhere and taking forever when it does work


With braid, I usually start with a fresh segment and put some RMA FLUX onto it. I preheat my solder pad then use the solder braid. I find the flux and preheating aids in the wicking process. The key to NOT spreading the solder all over is that you always need to use fresh braid on each joint.


Cool

That's pretty much exactly how I use it! except I rarely preheat the joint. I just press the iron onto the spot which needs the solder extracting, sandwiching the braid in between.

The key, with or without flux, is fresh braid every time Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

It's worth experimenting also, because certain widths are better than others. 4mm works very well for me. For surface mount stuff, thinner braid is essential.

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IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
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State Machine
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
It's worth experimenting also, because certain widths are better than others. 4mm works very well for me. For surface mount stuff, thinner braid is essential.


Yes, I agree, the width should suit the application Very Happy I also find that not pressing too hard will save you from lifting a pad when desoldering .....

Maybe a soldering/component removal thread would be helpful. Question

Bill
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para



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks for doing this Bill. i'm sure this took some time to write up and research i seriously appreciate the assistance. You as well v-un-v and sorry to take so long getting back to you. i became an uncle last night, i was at the hospital all day.


--- Q and A -----------

--- "OK, make sure Q3 and Q4 are oriented correctly and all the P-N junctions are each approximately one diode drop."

they are oriented as indicated on the board and from what i can make out of the traces i followed them according to the schematics. both faces facing C7 right? " are each approximately one diode drop" not sure how to do that? i turned it off and measured across each pin to center and got about .700 on the diode setting of my DMM but when it was turned on Q4 wouldn't read across two of its pins. sound right? i don't know transistors very well yet


--- "Check for wrong components. "

will have to do that again, but i've been over it a few times already


--- "Next, check U3-8 for a change in voltage as you adjust VC NOISE and INIT potentiometers. It will not be a large swing as the amplifier is actually inverting and attenuating. Also check that the Q3 and Q4 emitter drive at U3-14 varies in accordance with the change in INIT and VC NOISE adjustment. "

with a DMM set to DCv i was getting a range of like +/- 0.34v when moving the INIT but VC noise did nothing at all with U3-8 and U3-14 did nothing at all for either one.


--- " Check that C5 is properly connected and that it is indeed 470 pF. "

yes its 470pf and a little clear plastic tube (soda can style) lined with silver foil thats poly right?


--- "Make sure pin 5, INHIBIT, is actually grounded. "

yes, tested


--- "Make sure VCO IN at pin 9 is connected to 5 VDC, pin 16. "

yes, tested


--- "Is pin 16 really 5 VDC? "

i get 4.94V


--- "If this all looks good, try another CD4046 IC. "

replaced the 4046 and the noise now works. hurray!! but there are some odd behaviors that might just be me. shouldn't the env/lock switch just directly effect the env on the noise section without patching? it doesn't do anything unless i have patched some cv to the env in gate or key, and when its on “lock” the key in works and when on “env” the gate in works. its either one or the other but not both? is that right? oh and the noise bleeds into the tri out a bit is that normal?

the PWM still doesn't work though. could that normalled connection between the J7/lfo out and J3/linput be part of this? also it does now drop in pitch a tiny bit when its on either lfo or 50% ( i'm not sure if i have the switch positions wired right so it could be either one until i hear it working right)


--- "What test instruments do you own? Do you have an oscilloscope? A DVM? "

an old micronta digital multimeter, a really old international analog multimeter, a software oscilloscope but i haven't removed the filter cap from the converters of a sound card yet so it can't really be trusted. i just use it for waveshapes really, and then an old arcane heath oscilloscope that frankly sucks. i can't properly measure anything with it. $10 at a thrift store. if i could figure out how to calibrate it maybe but that would be hardcore i think. suggestions on a good cheap scope model to look for would be great!


--- "OK, let me know how you do with these suggestions. "

see above : )



steven
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para



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

the only braid i have ever had is the crap from radio shack maybe that has something to do it. its about 2mm but it has just always been horrible to try and heat and have it effect the actual solder on the other side. i've pretty much given up.




"Maybe a soldering/component removal thread would be helpful."

yes, especially for larger ICs and other delicate components that you might want to save.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
thanks for doing this Bill. i'm sure this took some time to write up and research i seriously appreciate the assistance. You as well v-un-v and sorry to take so long getting back to you. i became an uncle last night, i was at the hospital all day.


Well congratulations are in order ! God bless !

Glad the 4046 PLL is working now and you have achieved "NOISE" factor!! Maybe I should have said, "replace CD4046 first" but it is very rare a chip is bad .... Embarassed

Anyway, I will digest your last post and get back to you on the other items and questions .... I have been locked in the studio for the past day working on some new music ... Very Happy I took an extended weekend for myself. OH, Yes, I put the soldering iron down and powered down the oscilloscope and darkened the workbench .... Shocked

OK uncle "P"!! Very Happy Enjoy the new addition to the family !

Sincerely,
Bill
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

para wrote:
the only braid i have ever had is the crap from radio shack maybe that has something to do it.


Or maybe the iron has not enough power. The braid stuff worrks much better with a temperature regulated 50 W iron than with a 40 W unregulated one. And don't be affraid for it being too hot, better a bit too hot than too cold as when too cold soldering takes a long time (which heats the parts too much) and/or makes bad joints.

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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para



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i have yet to set aside enough money to get a nice iron. i have a 30w i think it wore off long ago. just a cheap one. i hear that a weller wp60 with a 700 degree regulated tip is the way to go. anyone else have a suggestion. i'd rather not dump $70+ on an iron right now.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

700 deg. F I hope Laughing
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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yeah i'm in the states so celsius doesn't get used over here.
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