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 Forum index » Discussion » Composition
Is there a difference between a Composer and a pop musician?
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iPassenger



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
RecklessGint wrote:
Pop is music. I may not like most pop, but, it's definitely music.

Chanting cavemen is music.

I may be the type of person who is very picky about music, but I'm not the kind of person who claims the types of music I dislike aren't music.


Me toooo! thumright


Agreed.

IMO: To think in this manner (RE: i don't like it so, it isn't proper music) is narrow minded and in many ways anti-art/anti-music. Despite the fact that though there are several genres I would love to be able to abolish from the music world (most stage show musicals(ALW etc)), but who knows what contribution they may one day bring (or already have brought) to (a) genre(s) that I love?

RE: Composoer/Pop Musician.

Not sure this is like for like for question. As already discussed musician implies nothing but performance and makes no reference in my mind to composition. However I also completely agree that the two are not mutually exclusive.

With regards to the use of the word, composer, I think it does suggest highbrow, music as an "ART" form rather than entertainment, which is why I have never been a fan of it. As a result, I have always considered myself a writer of music and not a composer, although I do not believe there is any real difference between the two.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Isn't composing putting elements of sound altogether? For me it's inrelevant if it's pop or jazz.
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Doni



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Couldn't a pop musician be a composer too?

I suppose that a pop musician would not be demanded upon for innovation as much as some other forms of music. But a pop musicians niche would be to compose hooks and such...

I wouldn't consider a pop musician less of a composer unless they write the same song over and over again, ala a one trick pony...

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Doni wrote:
one trick pony...


You really made me curious what that band would actually sound like ... http://myspace.com/onetrickpony ... Wink

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stringtapper



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ah but some of the most successful "pop" composers did exactly that, wrote the same song hundreds of times. Irving Berlin is the one that first springs to my mind. Tin Pan Alley songs were almost all based on AABA form and he milked that for his entire career. Sure there were different chords and different lyrics and such but at the end of the day he was basically writing the same song over and over.

And why was it popular? Because it was easily digestible without much thought or musical understanding. When the radio replaced the piano as the primary means for people to listen to music in their homes, composers like Berlin, Porter, Kern, Gershwin, etc., swooped in to cash in on that market vacuum. That's why they were called "crankers" in those days, because they cranked out the songs in record time.

So I wouldn't think less of someone for that, and I can be as much of a music snob as any other. That's like people who chastise others for using presets on their synths. Well if someone writes a beautiful piece of music using a preset, who cares?

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Doni



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

indeed.. now we are getting into what it means to be a "successful" musician...

I think that most true musicians are not looking at churning out tracks to reach their goals... and once the same song comes out of the same mouth, is that really composition? No, its re-packaging. That's something that laundry detergents do. I dont ever want to be compared to laundry detergent....

... ahhhh the one trick pony exists!! True to form no less.... ahem

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmm... it seems that in genres where the one-man-band with a laptop and/or DAW rules, the dedicated musician (who does not compose) is becoming extinct. I'm guessing that there is a possibility that, in time, some people will tire of their fruitless work, concentrate on mastering technique, and then team up with composers who will be able to realize even more complex works.

Even if it's not a strict composer/musician setup, I would like to see more collaborations in electro. I just bought Fennesz/Sakamoto's "Cendre". Enjoying the work of both of these separately, but not aware that they worked together (apparently this is their third album) this was a wonderful surprise, especially as Fennesz and Ryuichi Sakamoto are part of two different generations in music.

/Stefan

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Possibly OT.. but perhaps not..

I suggest the next stop is a sobering video interview of Peter Hammill.


Take your time and check out all the parts in the right order.

Ze blurb:
Quote:
FaceCulture spoke to British progrock legend Peter Hammill. He told about his urge to keep on making music, his heart attack, Singularity, personal changes, the death of his mother, the process of songwriting, asking questions in his music, the Peter Hammill from the past, being
self obsessed, Van Der Graaf Generator, success, David Bowie and Peter Gabriel, his independence and lots more

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Doni



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think that in order to make music and be good at it, one needs to have some musical background.. like playing an instrument or soemthing

I've played the drums since I was 16, and the idea of making music via prefab loops makes me cringe a little. Slapping together loops is easy

but alot of these laptop wizards can't be discounted as musicians at all. The laptop IS the instrument, isnt it? I'm not really a huge fan of those one-man-bands who set up a stool, jam on their laptop and call it a show, and I really think that music needs to be performed artfully (which, Im sorry, getting on stage and launching pre-queued loops is NOT... go ahead and argue!!)

I guess my point is that we can't discount the musical merit of a production simply because the composer does not play any instruments on it. Aren't these laptop musicians doing the same thing as Chopin, Beethoven, etc?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Antimon wrote:
Hmm... it seems that in genres where the one-man-band with a laptop and/or DAW rules, the dedicated musician (who does not compose) is becoming extinct. I'm guessing that there is a possibility that, in time, some people will tire of their fruitless work, concentrate on mastering technique, and then team up with composers who will be able to realize even more complex works.


That's one posibility, but what we are seeing now is, I think more akin to something different.

I think instrument developers have taken the role of virtuoso musicians where the virtuocity consists of a certain feature set. Preceived virtuocity in electronic music is often very close to using features unknown to the listener.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the real explosion in popular electronic music came with the implementation of arpegiators and sequencers in comercial instruments.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

stringtapper wrote:

So I wouldn't think less of someone for that, and I can be as much of a music snob as any other. That's like people who chastise others for using presets on their synths. Well if someone writes a beautiful piece of music using a preset, who cares?


Interesting, Can you name a example of a "beautifull piece of music" that's based on a synth preset?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
stringtapper wrote:

So I wouldn't think less of someone for that, and I can be as much of a music snob as any other. That's like people who chastise others for using presets on their synths. Well if someone writes a beautiful piece of music using a preset, who cares?


Interesting, Can you name a example of a "beautifull piece of music" that's based on a synth preset?


"the wind cries mary" by Jimi Hendrix. he used the preset sounds on a fender stratocaster and i believe it to be a beautiful piece of music.

also, Elgar's Enigma Variations are quite nice. he uses the "orchestra" preset. maybe it would have sounded better if he'd customised the orchestra, or even built all the instruments from scratch himself...

Razz

i don't think there's anything wrong with using presets per se... (eyes the track labels on his latest project....) i think it's what you do with them.

i'm not averse to programming my own sounds or modifying presets, but some of the presets on the Nord are just breathtaking.

admittedly, i layer most voices, so arguably some form of synthesis has occured at the compositional/production level.... but then isn't composition a form of synthesis?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I thought Hendrix modified his Fenders?

Ah, A quick Google tells me he did and that he also modified his amps, maybe those weren't used on that particular piece.

Also, those aren't realy "synth presets" now, are they?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
stringtapper wrote:

So I wouldn't think less of someone for that, and I can be as much of a music snob as any other. That's like people who chastise others for using presets on their synths. Well if someone writes a beautiful piece of music using a preset, who cares?


Interesting, Can you name a example of a "beautifull piece of music" that's based on a synth preset?


Why should I? I never proposed that it was so, only that if it were so, who should care?

The fact that you and I may have no idea of such a piece's existence makes the possibility no less real.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

However nice Dasz's sequenced contributions to the Nord Modular G2 are, I don't think any serious artist would be comfortable with using them unmodified in a released work of their own. On the other hand, it's completely possible that several artists are using the "piano" preset that I have on my Kurzweil KME-1. How about the "ooh><aah" preset in the same box? Where do we cross over the line?

I sometimes (when my hormones are having a particularly bad day) feel that the very act of using a sequencer or arpeggiator is a tired old trick.

/Stefan

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

stringtapper wrote:

Why should I? I never proposed that it was so, only that if it were so, who should care?

The fact that you and I may have no idea of such a piece's existence makes the possibility no less real.


Yes, I realise it was a a theoretical remark.

What I was hinting at is that I think one of the most (potentially) beautifull things in electronic music is that one can write pieces, then have them played in a way adapted perfectly for that piece.

There is nothing wrong with presets per-se, I agree, but I do think that that way of writing is easier if you can change both the piece and the sound it's played in. Because presets are menat for general usage they tend to lack the speciffic, unusual and highly adapted nature of home-made sounds.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
What I was hinting at is that I think one of the most (potentially) beautifull things in electronic music is that one can write pieces, then have them played in a way adapted perfectly for that piece.


Absolutely. The ability to write pitches and rhythms and keep them static while "auditioning" different timbres and textures is what first got me hooked on using electronics.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, I know what you mean, but then I still end up tweaking. 500 presets might sound like a lot but it's still very little if you need -say- a flute sound suitable for very short notes except for a long note in a break that should also be more breathy and use a slight vibrato in amplitude.

.... and that's without even going into finding a good nare with the right timbre and the right decay.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Doni wrote:
I really think that music needs to be performed artfully (which, Im sorry, getting on stage and launching pre-queued loops is NOT... go ahead and argue!!)


i'd suggest going to see Nathan Fake live and downloading a couple of his sets. he's one of these one man and his laptop musicians you're talking about.

he's engaging to watch for a start. but i'd love to see you try to replicate what he does. production wise, you've got hundreds of miles left to run. but even if you were to be given his laptop with his performance programme ready to go, you'd flounder. you wouldn't have the skill to operate it, let alone produce a musically compelling structure on the fly.

i know Nathan, and he's a few years younger than me and both those facts actually make it harder to say this for some reason.

he's the most exciting live dance act around at the moment.

this stems from the way he has his live set programmed, and i'm envious because i wish i had the skill and natural ability to layout a set like this. he starts playing, usually whatever interests him, but has the ability to turn the entire flavour of the live set round depending on type of audience and how the audience react. from the same live set, i've seen him do downtempo or acid house, or tech house or just plain wierd leftfield ambient either with a four to the floor kick drum or with more intricate clicky ticky autechre style percussion.

to achieve that level of improvisation within a single set and essentially be playing the same material, or to somehow give the clever illusion that you are doing this is the way a laptop set should be.

i'd say that Fake is the Hendrix of the laptop.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

We're veering ever further from the original topic. I can only applaud that.

Stanley; I admire Sendex for this reason. I've seen Sander perform quite a few times and it's always exciting. When Sander plays he tends to hauls along more gear then many have in their studio, mainly old drummachines and matching synths (no laptop). The exciting thing is that he knows all of his gear increadibly well and that he'll often brush through his prepared material rather quickly and wings the rest of his set, programing it while it plays.

It's sad that this doesn't work optimally in front of the amounts of people I think he deserves as elevated stages obstruct a clear view of the performer's hands but in smaller/more improvised/ less established venues it's truely a sight to behold.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
It's sad that this doesn't work optimally in front of the amounts of people I think he deserves as elevated stages obstruct a clear view of the performer's hands but in smaller/more improvised/ less established venues it's truely a sight to behold.


this is why i compared Fake to Hendrix. it's about time electronic musicians realised there's an alternative to Kraftwerkesque po-faced performance. or even worse, the trance DJ's hands in the air salute to gurning god in the sky...

Fake has the ability, it would seem, to move his entire body around a single pot to demonstrate that he is in control of that filter sweep you are listening to... or jerks his body appropriately with the introduction of a new percussion line. he gives visual cues as to what he's doing, even though the audience can't see his actual hands. think of hendrix, appearing to pluck his strings with his teeth. fake's not quite at that level yet, but he's sure having a go.

i have to admit that i'm guilty doing the old "look serious, stand still and bob your head to the beat" trick waaaay too much! thank god i have to sing occasionally. mic stands make great props to pose with Wink

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmmmm, I looked at some you-tube videos. Are there more then one person called "nathan fake"? I only saw a guy dance while looking at his laptop schreen, sounded like Ableton but that might've been the Flash compression.

Not realy my cup, I like this sort of thing;
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3522858511732756599

You can "jerk your body to the introduction of a new percussion line" but I feel that in live performance you should be writing the new percussion line instead. If you have time to spare it'd be nice to spend that also writing the code that makes the percussive sounds.

I'm one of a small minority in this, it seems.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen, in response to your writing the pattern and the code point, i think this only viable presuming you make up part of a band (with other members creating their sections). Otherwise if you are devoting your time to coming up with a cunning hi-hat pattern and sound, while being the only performer on stage i suspect the audience may not be so impressed. I think part of the problem with the live electronic music scene is that the audience expect a cd quality production, which inevitably means a fair amount of pre-production before the stuff goes live and thus reduces the live-ness of it. Though as Stanley says the better performers in this arena seem to be able to do a good job of giving you the impression that it is all coming together fluidly live and direct whilst maintaining hi quality signals.

I would like to nod to Neil Landstrumm who played an awesome live-set with several machines a huge mixer and a laptop (for backup) in a small venue in Sheffield to a very appreicative audience, as someone who has managed this and my friends in blackdog also seem manage it with just 3 laptops running side by side (all running Ableton).

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Hmmmm, I looked at some you-tube videos. Are there more then one person called "nathan fake"? I only saw a guy dance while looking at his laptop schreen, sounded like Ableton but that might've been the Flash compression.

Not realy my cup, I like this sort of thing;
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3522858511732756599

You can "jerk your body to the introduction of a new percussion line" but I feel that in live performance you should be writing the new percussion line instead. If you have time to spare it'd be nice to spend that also writing the code that makes the percussive sounds.

I'm one of a small minority in this, it seems.


i like to balance both approaches. i think you're in danger of losing touch with an audience if you become too technically indulgent.

i'm not against using presets at all. after all, few of us would criticise Heifitz or Rostropovich for not making their own violin or 'cello respectively. i couldn't imagine anyone seriously criticising Hendrix because he used an "out of the box" guitar... (it's worth comparing Hendrix to Brian May at this point...)

i'm unashamedly using a lot of Nord presets (albeit layered...) on my album because, to be frank, they're beautiful. i'm still working on my ability to programme pads that are satisfying to my ears. until then i'm drawing on the expertise of programmers far better than me, who have provided us with beautiful instruments it would be almost criminal not to share.

Fake uses Ableton for his live sets, albeit with plugins he's programmed himself. i see nothing wrong with that at all.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

iPassenger wrote:
Kassen, in response to your writing the pattern and the code point, i think this only viable presuming you make up part of a band (with other members creating their sections). Otherwise if you are devoting your time to coming up with a cunning hi-hat pattern and sound, while being the only performer on stage i suspect the audience may not be so impressed.


Let me first clarify; the "write the code" comment was meant to indicate you can always do more, and you can always go more "live". If I had hands or time to spare during a liveset I'd definately considder writing a drum module but I don't because writing all the patterns + mixing + improvising effects is a lot of work for me already.

Wrting a clever highhat pattern in realtime is definately doable though, you can do that on a drummachine or mpc, you could do that with one of those pad-based MIDI controlers in Live if you'd like, you could use one of those guitar loopers.... With a good drummachine and a reasonable BPM you can write the loop's highhats in less time then the loop's length.

This definately takes practice and lots of it but if you pull it off I definately do think the audience will be impressed and apreceative.

If I'd be booked for a long ambient set now, BTW, I'd seriously considder writing all of it, on the spot, including soundsources in pure ChucK. That would mean another bout of practicing daily but I think that would be worth it for a interesting challenge like that. It can be done and it's not *that* hard.

I'm not saying everybody should get into livecoding or even that writing everything on the fly in sequencers is the only way to truely make it "live" but I have to say that I am a bit disapointed every time when I see a performer who's not continually bussy playing. I've done the whole clubs, dance music, Ableton Live thing for years (in a twoperson outfit, I was doing the mix and effects as well as extra drums and so on) and I was never happy withit unless both hands were continually working, likely playing different instruments and I went off stage exhausted and soaked in sweat.

Quote:
I think part of the problem with the live electronic music scene is that the audience expect a cd quality production, which inevitably means a fair amount of pre-production before the stuff goes live and thus reduces the live-ness of it. Though as Stanley says the better performers in this arena seem to be able to do a good job of giving you the impression that it is all coming together fluidly live and direct whilst maintaining hi quality signals.


Yes, i can definately see where you are coming from but I think you are underestimating the audience (or maybe you are in a different scene then I am and the audiences are different). I always found that audiences are quite forgiving in soundquality and polishedness. You can have clipping channels, you can have crashing gear.... I don't think it matters as long as it's clear that you are throwing your whole being into playing.

Audiences will pick up on this. A while ago I watched some you-tube videos of profesional pianists playing extrodinarily hard pieces by Liszt. It was very clear that these people couldn't spare any time to even aknowledge the audience's presence while playing. I think this is clear to anyone who sees such a performance, you can tell by the sweat gushing down his (they were all men) face, you can tell that that despite all the practice and the huge amount of raw tallent these people are still under a huge strain..... and you can tell they are going through this for our (the audience's) benefit. I believe that that kind of effort will always be apreceated.

Quote:
I would like to nod to Neil Landstrumm who played an awesome live-set with several machines a huge mixer and a laptop (for backup) in a small venue in Sheffield to a very appreicative audience, as someone who has managed this and my friends in blackdog also seem manage it with just 3 laptops running side by side (all running Ableton).


I don't think it matters that much wether laptops or "hardware" are used. Both are excelent for live music, both are excelent for hitting "play" and nodding one's head. I'd like to make it very clear that I don't think hitting play and making minor tweaks on a mixer is inherently a "Bad Thing" but I wouldn't call that a "live performance", I'd call that a "tape concert"; it's a presentation of material created at home, maybe it's like a digital DJset consisting entirely of the artist's pieces, but to me it's not somebody playing a instrument.

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