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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software
PS3100 Resonators 2008
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ericcoleridge



Joined: Jan 16, 2007
Posts: 889
Location: NYC

PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, I guess I chose my words poorly. Obviously, no one wants a graphic equalizer-- but rather, I was imagining something closer to the Moog Filter Bank module/String Filter/ Parametric EQ/ Etc.

I just don't know if there is any point in limiting the frequency range of the various stages of this design-- or if it would be a more functional design to leave it the way it is with three filters at full frequency range. I guess it depends on what one wants to use the design for. I don't think the extra cost of vactrols necessarily makes them a poor design choice for a parametric eq.
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/mr



Joined: Aug 05, 2007
Posts: 223
Location: Elektron City, Sweden
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ericcoleridge wrote:
I just don't know if there is any point in limiting the frequency range of the various stages of this design-- or if it would be a more functional design to leave it the way it is with three filters at full frequency range.

Did you really intend to limit the range, not to move it?
And how "full" is the peak frequency range to begin with? I guess it's not 20-20000 Hz, so using different capacitor values in order to shift them a bit to different ranges sounds imho more useful than having them at identical ranges.

Now I see in this SOS article that the resonator works over the range 100Hz-10kHz, that is just half the audible spectrum. Giving them ranges like
40Hz-4kHz
80Hz-8kHz
160Hz-16kHz
would probably be more useful when used more like a parametric eq.

ericcoleridge wrote:
I don't think the extra cost of vactrols necessarily makes them a poor design choice for a parametric eq.

No, definitely not. But for a graphic one. Smile
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ericcoleridge



Joined: Jan 16, 2007
Posts: 889
Location: NYC

PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

/mr wrote:

Now I see in this SOS article that the resonator works over the range 100Hz-10kHz, that is just half the audible spectrum. Giving them ranges like
40Hz-4kHz
80Hz-8kHz
160Hz-16kHz
would probably be more useful when used more like a parametric eq.


Do you think that substituting cap values for various ranges as used in opamp feedback path of a filter bank like this, for instance, might be somewhat applicable to the Resonator?
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/mr



Joined: Aug 05, 2007
Posts: 223
Location: Elektron City, Sweden
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ericcoleridge wrote:
/mr wrote:

...just half the audible spectrum. Giving them ranges like
40Hz-4kHz
80Hz-8kHz
160Hz-16kHz
would probably be more useful when used more like a parametric eq.

Do you think that substituting cap values for various ranges as used in opamp feedback path of a filter bank like this, for instance, might be somewhat applicable to the Resonator?

The filter topology is different, so it's hard to say directly...
but the R's and C's around the OPamp determine the frequency and Q.

Does anybody have the filter formulas for our PS resonator at hand?
I haven't been able to find them anywhere yet.
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fonik



Joined: Jun 07, 2006
Posts: 3950
Location: Germany
Audio files: 23

PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i finished the building docs for the 2nd run PCBs:
http://www.modular.fonik.de/pdf/PS3100.pdf

i will have no access to internet or email for the next 2 weeks! Shocked we are moving and the provider is not able to move the wideband connection without downtime.
hopefully i will have some good news as soon as i am online again...

so have a nice one.

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cheers,
matthias
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Tronato



Joined: Sep 21, 2007
Posts: 274
Location: Florida
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello!

One for me please!

Thanks!

TRON
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Peake



Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3

PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've always wanted 16 channels of VC BPF for resonation (fixed filters, unless using integrators, displease). One thought was to have a global CV input called Spread, which would, from a single CV, move all of the filters apart in frequency (the middle ones just a little, and the outer ones increasingly more and more, requiring trimmed inverting CV paths for half of the filters). Playing with the audio ins on the Andromeda, playing the 16 voice's filters via the keyboard and ribbon gives rise to this modular concept.

But now I'm reading that this design is only functional across half of the audio spectrum. Confused
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mono71



Joined: Mar 24, 2008
Posts: 2
Location: Buenos Aires - Argentina

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Matthias,

is there place for one PCB reservation ?

If yes, please add mine.

Thanks

Cheers

Gustavo.-
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/mr



Joined: Aug 05, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peake wrote:
I've always wanted 16 channels of VC BPF for resonation (fixed filters

VC but fixed? Wink (ok, just kidding, I see your point)

Quote:
But now I'm reading that this design is only functional across half of the audio spectrum. Confused

Yes, but would you really need ALL the bands to go over the WHOLE audio spectrum?

I wonder how wide the span could be made with this construction. Some filter formulas would be nice, hint hint. Smile
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widdly



Joined: Jun 25, 2007
Posts: 268
Location: singapore
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'd say it's much more than half the audio spectrum. 100Hz to 10kHz is more like 90% of the audio spectrum if you think in terms of octaves.

Filter formula would be nice. There are some formula for Single Op-Amp Bandpass Filter here.. http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/opamp.htm#bandpass.gif

.. but the topology looks a bit different from the ones here. Anyway I think those figures would be guesstimates considering the tolerance of vactrols.

Last edited by widdly on Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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/mr



Joined: Aug 05, 2007
Posts: 223
Location: Elektron City, Sweden
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

widdly wrote:
I'd say it's much more than half the audio spectrum. 100Hz to 10kHz is more like 90% of the audio spectrum if you think in terms of octaves.

Interesting... How do you explain the almost 2½ lost octaves between 20Hz and 100Hz, and the one above 10k? Wink

No, 100-10k is 6.6 octaves, which means 66% of the audio spectrum.
I got it a bit wrong when I said it was just half the spectrum, I was thinking 100*100 instead of 100*10.

widdly wrote:
Anyway I think those figures would be guesstimates considering the tolerance of vactrols.

Not the tolerance, but the resistance span.
VTL5C3/2 has a rated ON resistance of 2 kohms (at 40 mA, ouch!) or 55 kohms (at 1 mA). Its OFF resistance is 10 Mohms (after 10 seconds). Between these values the span could get as big as 5000x (which means 12 octaves if the filter frequency is linearly dependant of the Vactrol resistance), but practical considerations in current and timing will limit the span quite a bit...
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/mr



Joined: Aug 05, 2007
Posts: 223
Location: Elektron City, Sweden
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

/mr wrote:
Some filter formulas would be nice, hint hint. Smile

A quickly calculated transfer function, to begin with... does it seem reasonable for a single resonator? Smile
Bedtime here now, so I'll pass the analysis along to other continents while sleeping.


resonator.png
 Description:
schematic of one resonator
 Filesize:  8.42 KB
 Viewed:  12941 Time(s)

resonator.png



formula.gif
 Description:
transfer function of one resonator
 Filesize:  21.02 KB
 Viewed:  12941 Time(s)

formula.gif


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Cat-A-Tonic



Joined: Mar 24, 2008
Posts: 42
Location: Yokohama, Japan

PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I would like a PS3100 PCB please.
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Master of Circles



Joined: Jun 27, 2007
Posts: 14
Location: Hamburg

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

as I wrote in the PM or was it an email??

Two Boards please.
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fonik



Joined: Jun 07, 2006
Posts: 3950
Location: Germany
Audio files: 23

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i am online again. still don't have net access at home, though.

PCBs have arrived and i will populate and test one this week. we moved to our new home last week and there is still a lot of work to do. however i started to arrange my new S-DIY workspace!

thanks to you all for your patience.

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cheers,
matthias
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fonik



Joined: Jun 07, 2006
Posts: 3950
Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

finished the test PCB yesterday and it is resonating...

i will do some additional testing on weekend and review the original thread of the 1st run for additional info that might will be incorporated into the documentation.

await PMs containing payment info on monday. there are at least two projects going to be released this week on e-m (the buchla 281 clone will provide some nice functions for the resonators, i think) - so don't spend all your money on the weekends amusements Wink

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matthias
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/mr



Joined: Aug 05, 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

fonik wrote:
there are at least two projects going to be released this week on e-m (the buchla 281 clone will provide some nice functions for the resonators, i think)

Aaaahhhh, Buchla... and the 281 - one of the modules I was planning to clone! How good to hear! Very Happy
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fonik



Joined: Jun 07, 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yeah, i am realy keen on josh's b281 PCBs. he did an outstanding job on these. ...and my new cabinet will be filled faster then i wanted to...
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matthias
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fonik



Joined: Jun 07, 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

here are some pics of the new resonator:

the bare board
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

enough room for 500V silver mica caps
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

the populated PCB
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

testing
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

and last but not least my new workspace (i used to solder on my computers desk until now)
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

i will start to send out PMs later this day. i won't be able to PM everyone today, so just give me two days or three...

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cheers,
matthias
____________
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Last edited by fonik on Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:04 am; edited 2 times in total
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asafnetzer



Joined: Jun 16, 2007
Posts: 112
Location: Israel

PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Have just seen those pictures on flickr, looking great.
500V capacitors Shocked
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/mr



Joined: Aug 05, 2007
Posts: 223
Location: Elektron City, Sweden
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

fonik wrote:
enough room for 500V silver mica caps

What does this voltage rating mean practically? For electrolytic caps, I've heard that one should choose a voltage rating near the voltage used in the actual construction. Does it matter at all for silver mica caps?

(I saw at Banzaieffects/Musikding that all capacitance values might not be available in lower voltage ratings.)
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fonik



Joined: Jun 07, 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

these big caps just look so good. very impressing.

i've heard, the higher the voltage rating the lower the ESR. i don't think i would hear/experience any difference. in fact i actually don't know what difference i should or could experience Laughing
maybe one of the experts could chime in?

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matthias
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fonik



Joined: Jun 07, 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

everyone who expressed interest in one or more PCBs should have recieved a PM now. if not, don't hesitate to contact me.
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matthias
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fonik



Joined: Jun 07, 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

all PCBs are now spoken for. however i will start a waiting list in case not all ordered PCBs get sold in the end.

BTW the first PCBs reached destination.
i'd really like to see pictures of what you've done with them. i mean, last year i sold 100(!) Resonator PCBs and saw only 5 pictures of finished modules...

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cheers,
matthias
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prophei



Joined: Jan 27, 2007
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Location: san francisco, ca
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

fonik wrote:
all PCBs are now spoken for. however i will start a waiting list in case not all ordered PCBs get sold in the end.

BTW the first PCBs reached destination.
i'd really like to see pictures of what you've done with them. i mean, last year i sold 100(!) Resonator PCBs and saw only 5 pictures of finished modules...


i hope you got my paypal in time Smile
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