Music as illustration of sounds and copyrights

Wout Blommers

[Editor note: topic split from http://electro-music.com/forum/post-230101.html]

v-un-v · --mosc Feb 27, 2009

elektro80 · Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:43 pm Post subject:

Tom, that is not how it works. Any publication is a violation if not the fees are paid. Traditionally this is not a problem for performers as such since the venue, the label or radio station or whatever will handle all this for them. electro-music.com will however not pay any fees, so any sort of publication here of works you do not own will be a violation.

As for "excerpts", there is no major distinction between a short snippet and the full song.

The fact that people seemingly get away with this, does not mean that the rules should be obeyed.

Youtube supposedly has some sort of deal with various rights management agencies, but I do not know about the details. Myspace has strict rules though, but still people are setting up fan pages on Myspace with music ripped from CDs.

Wout Blommers · Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:09 pm Post subject:

But does this also include Patches made on a synth not by the original author but by somebody else? On another brand of synthesizer? The author had nothing to do with that...

Wout

elektro80 · Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:56 pm Post subject:

You are not talking about a copyrighted piece of music?

The patches of Jean Michel Jarre? All his predigital synths stuff is very basic which anyone can do. You might need a specific piece of gear though, but apart from that your mom can do it.

I don´t know much about his digital synth work, but obviously some of the samples you would have to steal, or make something that sounds like the real thing.

A performance of his music by a machine ( sequencer )? This is defined as a recording or a performance or both. Copyrights apply.

Is a patch copyrighted? Well, yes.. but if you make the same patch without actually copying exact the original then there is no case. And if you make the exact same thing without having looked over someone else´s shoulder, then.. no problem. But keep in mind that the capabilities of most vintage normalised synths are very limited, so seasoned synthesists will basically use the same strategies and thus be able to make the same sounds. How they work is common knowledge. There is no reasonable way to claim ownership to patches on such synths.

But, things change a bit when you can save a patch to a file and then distribute it. Claiming ownership to a patch made by say Wout would be wrong as you would be using his exact work.

Wout Blommers · Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:29 pm Post subject:

I think Albert has lost his appetite by now ever to start a project like this Smile

Stein, it sounds to me somebody who once wrote a piece for violin claims all music played on a violin or worst, every text containing the letter 'e' is copyrighted.

Anyway on most synthesizer dedicated forums the question comes up: "How is this sound made", mostly with an attachment of a mp3 as example. Then a discussion starts. Is this outside the law?

It reminds me about a radio play long ago (must be... radio play!) based on a science fiction story in which a machine appears which can make everything you want, but only once. How to make a weapon if only one bullet can be produced? Well, the space travellers did, but the story never told how. When needed the gun was smashed into the face Very Happy

My enthusiastic feeling still says: go, Albert, go!

Wout

PS Jarre uses a NordLead2 and not a NordLead3, while the music to which is referred was never recorded by using any Clavia synths.

elektro80 · Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:49 pm Post subject:

elektro80 · Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:52 pm Post subject:

elektro80 · Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:59 pm Post subject:

But your are partly talking about patches here Wout? Imitating the sounds of Jean Michel Jarre is hardly a violation. And you can write music in the style of JMJ without being sued your balls off. As I stated before, the analog synth sounds of JMJ are not possible to copyright. There might be certain amples that you can get in trouble for.. but if you just sample something that sounds like JMJ, instead of ripping off his work then there is no problem at all.

dorremifasol · Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:04 am Post subject:

So...?

Can I post the song or not? Razz

I suppose not.

I too find Jarre sounds fairly simple, I had no problem replicating most of them with the Nord Rack 3 (analog stuff only of course). The Nord Lead 2 has a more pronounced character, which in my opinion makes it less appropriate to simulate sounds of other synthesizers. The Nord Lead 3 is also much more versatile and once you know it you can get pretty living sounds out of it.

Equinoxe V is a VERY basic song, so I suppose that changing the melody a bit (but maintaining the sounds and the note positions) would make it free of copyright?

elektro80 · Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:11 am Post subject:

elektro80 · Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:14 am Post subject:

Check the rules over at Youtube. If it seems like you won´t lose your testicles if they find you have "pirated" JMJ, then post it there first and then embed the video here? Youtube is fully publishing everything for external linking or embedding, and it seems like they must have some sort of RMA agreement in place, just like good old old mp3.com had.

elektro80 · Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:17 am Post subject:

mosc · Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:00 pm Post subject:

It is clearly posted all over this site. If you don't own the copyright, then don't post it here.

Wout Blommers · Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:03 pm Post subject:

ark · Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:20 pm Post subject:

elektro80 · Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:44 pm Post subject:

Well, sure.. if you know for sure that a certain piece of music is in the public domain then everything is just fine.
Disclaimer: But the sheet music you play the music from, or you learned the piece from might be copyrighted. And if you play say a piece by Händel ( that has been cleaned up, with all the corrections that particular manuscript requires.. and possibly with some annotations and further corrections done by scholars who have a better idea how to solve some problems ) there might be still copyrights involved. And this is very easy to spot by those who know their Hândel well.

The morale is this: If you really know what you are doing then obviously you really know what you are doing.. and if you don´t then you really don´t.
-Or something of the sort.. YMMV. dasz

Wout Blommers · Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:28 pm Post subject:

And there you have the difficulties: In The Netherlands Handel is more then 50 years dead and therefore free of copyrights concerning the composer. The performer and the producer of e.g. a CD are still involved.
(I just signed the contract about 'musac' in a shop in which this is stated...)

Wout

AbjectEvolution · Joined: Jan 29, 2008 Posts: 137 Location: US

I have a question regarding copyrights and so I thought I would post it here.

My wife got one of those birthday cards that makes sound when you open it. I sampled this sound with a mic and created a sample instrument with it for my Nord Wave. I uploaded it to the Wave and through major tweakng, came up with a program that I then saved.

The orignal sample is barely audible, but every so often you can kind of hear some likeness.

So my question is, is this ok for me to do? Could I use this program in a song? How do the laws work when sampling something and using it in a song. If I sample an old Scary Stories tape that my roomate has, and I create a program with it and use it in a song... is that ok?

elektro80 · Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:11 pm Post subject:

Well...

You see, the structure of laws and the food chain re copyrights and publishing and all that do not in any way really prevent an artist from creating something new out of whatever. However, the shit hits the fan if you publish this without clearing rights and all that. Your label/publisher/agent will sort all this out for you. In some cases it might be very hard to get access to some material, like Madonna´s latest hits and what have you, but in general the rights management industry is there in order to help you out.

So, if you use some common sense, then you can clearly borrow and steal.. just document what it is you have put in there and where you got it from.

Is there a catch? Oh yes, because if you are not signed to some kind of pro management/label/publisher then sorting this out yourself will be expensive and messy. And this also means that you simply cannot in any way risk to publish the new creations anywhere on your own. You can however perform this stuff live. The venue will sort this out for you. You make some sort of document listing the material you will play and you must remember to jot down a few notes re the borrowed stuff. You then give the document ( your playlist ) to the dudes who have arranged the concert.

dorremifasol · Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:01 pm Post subject:

I posted it on another place. I suppose there's no problem now Smile

[link removed by Blue Hell]

The download version sounds much better...

blue hell · Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:31 pm Post subject:

elektro80 · Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:38 pm Post subject:

At least Dante´s Inferno is in the public domain now..

angel

dorremifasol · Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:56 pm Post subject:

I don't understand why I can't post a link to a place where I put a tune made by myself, which sounds like a tune made by another person, as an example of sounds that can be made with a specific synthesizer.

Sorry, won't happen again.

Wout Blommers · Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:14 am Post subject:

I can imagine it's hard to understand...

Lets put it this way: electro-music.com doesn't want to be in the situation somebody ever is able to sue this forum. There isn't enough money in the pocket Sad

It will be the end of this all...

I visited lately a site where you had some nice sounds made by the NordLead3 synthesizer. Maybe it would be nice to share the sysex?

Wout