FWIW I used a 30mA lumex led (the same kind that MOTM uses) and used the 8K2 resistors, and it works fine. I suspect a smaller value will make it marginally brighter.
Thanks.
I'm guessing that actually with a 30mA led you would technically need/want a resistor even lower than 820 (I had guessed a higher value before), since it requires/handles more current. I'll see what I have in the neighborhood of that value - might end up having to be a 1K since I have plenty of those.
my led keeps shining ,it don't follow any rate change or so,how can i fix that?
It's Power-On LED. It follows the change of your power switch.
It's connected - via resistors - to the Frequency pot because that's a pot that carries both positive and negative supply voltage at its ends, nothing more.
JH.
Thanks Juergen,i didn't know,am gonna link it to the resonance on/off switch then that i implemented on the panel aswell
Almost done wiring up and had a couple questions about how the unit works:
1) It looks to me from the wiring diagram that long/short resonance only applies to normal resonance - if you are using inverted resonance then the long/short switch has no effect. Is this correct?
2) I'm not totally clear on how a stereo signal comes to the outputs separated into the left and right outputs. I say this because it looks like there are 2 output signals - but rather than a left and a right signal, they are a short and a long signal, and both the left and right output jacks tap from the same long and short output signal, so it looks to me as though the 2 output jacks basically receive the same output signal each. Am I missing something?
Almost done wiring up and had a couple questions about how the unit works:
1) It looks to me from the wiring diagram that long/short resonance only applies to normal resonance - if you are using inverted resonance then the long/short switch has no effect. Is this correct?
2) I'm not totally clear on how a stereo signal comes to the outputs separated into the left and right outputs. I say this because it looks like there are 2 output signals - but rather than a left and a right signal, they are a short and a long signal, and both the left and right output jacks tap from the same long and short output signal, so it looks to me as though the 2 output jacks basically receive the same output signal each. Am I missing something?
Thanks.
1. - no. Should have an effect on both.
2. You can choose shor or long, for each, left and right channel separetly. With these switches, you can perform dramatic changes from mono to stereo (if both were short or long, and now one is short and the other is long), and even more dramatic stereo inversion (switch from long-short to short-long). I think I have some of these effects in my demo.
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
Almost done wiring up and had a couple questions about how the unit works:
1) It looks to me from the wiring diagram that long/short resonance only applies to normal resonance - if you are using inverted resonance then the long/short switch has no effect. Is this correct?
2) I'm not totally clear on how a stereo signal comes to the outputs separated into the left and right outputs. I say this because it looks like there are 2 output signals - but rather than a left and a right signal, they are a short and a long signal, and both the left and right output jacks tap from the same long and short output signal, so it looks to me as though the 2 output jacks basically receive the same output signal each. Am I missing something?
Thanks.
1. - no. Should have an effect on both.
2. You can choose shor or long, for each, left and right channel separetly. With these switches, you can perform dramatic changes from mono to stereo (if both were short or long, and now one is short and the other is long), and even more dramatic stereo inversion (switch from long-short to short-long). I think I have some of these effects in my demo.
JH.
Thanks for the info.
If both were set to "short" or "long" at the same time, then it basically is the exact same signal on each output jack, though, right?
I think so - take a look at the youtube demo I posted, a page back - the audio is stereo, panned hard left and right. You can hear when I switch it out of bypass that it goes to mono, although there are a few places where I switch to short and long on the respective outs and the sound field changes noticeably. There's only one delay line in there, so you're not going to get true stereo.
I think so - take a look at the youtube demo I posted, a page back - the audio is stereo, panned hard left and right. You can hear when I switch it out of bypass that it goes to mono, although there are a few places where I switch to short and long on the respective outs and the sound field changes noticeably. There's only one delay line in there, so you're not going to get true stereo.
It's mono-in, stereo-out - so it's not true stereo, as in "processing a stereo signal".
But the two outputs are really a stereo output, IMO. (*not* pseudo-stereo as you often find it with just an inverted effect on one channel.)
The two channels share the first half of the delay line in the FX path, and two of four all pass filters in the dry path.
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
Ok, finished up but I fear I might have an issue(s). The LFO ticks/bleedsthrough really loudly in the "wet" output (if I turn mix to totally dry I can't hear it), depending on the setting of Manual Sweep, LFO depth and which waveform (S+H is the worst culprit). Any ideas? It's so loud that at the highest LFO rate setting I can actually hear the waveform in the output like a VCO (rather than a ticking)! Just checked and it's not just the internal LFO - it's any modulation - just plugged something into the Ext Mod input as well as 1V/Oct and could hear it plain as day on the output.
Looking at the waveforms, I thought "ramp" would be more of a sawtooth but it just looks like a triangle wave, much like the "slew" setting - the difference between the 2 settings being that "slew" is a much smaller triangle peak-to-peak than the "ramp" setting triangle wave. Does this sound right? Otherwise it is flanging and sounds great - S+H is just unusable, though, and the others are pretty unusable depending on where Manual is set.
Also, trying to calibrate - sorry, but where is a good test point for the Clock Low trimmer?
Joined: Apr 19, 2010 Posts: 346 Location: San Francisco, CA
Audio files: 13
Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:18 pm Post subject:
jhaible wrote:
It's mono-in, stereo-out - so it's not true stereo, as in "processing a stereo signal".
Hi Jürgen, in your schematics (and on the front panel of your own unit), you have an "L Input" and "R Input". But here you say it's mono in. Am I misunderstanding something? I just want to make sure my front panel design is correct.
It's mono-in, stereo-out - so it's not true stereo, as in "processing a stereo signal".
Hi Jürgen, in your schematics (and on the front panel of your own unit), you have an "L Input" and "R Input". But here you say it's mono in. Am I misunderstanding something? I just want to make sure my front panel design is correct.
Thanks,
Jim
It has a true stereo bypass.
JH. _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
Here's a video I took on my phone so you can see what I'm talking about. It's blurry but I show that resonance is off (and turned all the way down for extra measure), just to make it clear that it's not about the flanger self-oscillating.
This is with nothing connected to the input, the input volume all the way down and the mix set to 100% wet.
Numbertalk, I did not miss your forum messages, and not your PM either.
I'm coming home *tired* from a day full of work in my "main" job.
When I started to focus on the EM forum for communcation about the PCB projects, I was hoping that those who have successfully built a project, help me helping others to get theirs running.
Even though I've tried to answer every question in the past, even when most problems in the past have been due to wrong component values, bad solder joints, wrong wiring etc, I tried to help where I could. But It appears that I've come to my limits. When I start to feel guilty because I cannot give a service-hotline-like help with quick turnaround (even though I never promised such a thing), something must have gone wrong. When I have to explain why I take the liberty to answer a question of somebody else, or spend time debugging the upcoming vocoder project, or - even worse - do something to simply relax myself - all the while a burning question of a not-working Flanger is looming over my head: Then something has gone completely wrong. Then having made my hobby into a business has been a failure, and I'd better get back to a full-time job in the automation industry.
Guys, don't expect me to answer every question in person. I'm confident thiose who have successfully built and understood a certain project, can help others to debug theirs. I has to work like this, or this whole little business of mine will crash, sooner or later.
JH. (sorry for the rant) _________________ "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
I can understand what you are saying. It's looking as though no one has anything to say about this issue, though, so I guess I'm just stuck.
I have to respond to one thing in particular you say here:
jhaible wrote:
When I have to explain why I take the liberty to answer a question of somebody else
Well, I purchased a board from you, I spent a lot of time and money to build this project, and perhaps you never promised you would always walk everyone through any type of debug/problem scenario, but having said that, I would hope to not feel totally ignored, which is how I do feel when I see you respond to someone else on this thread after 4 days since I'd posted my problem, and you can't even be bothered to acknowledge my message, as someone who has purchased and successfully built just about all of your projects, even if just to tell me "I can't help you at the moment - I'll try to get to you later". That's what I might not be able to agree with you about. It would just at least make me feel like a respected customer, someone who cares about your projects, has taken the time to build this project, to get some sort of reply, even if it's to tell me you can't help me right now, you're in the middle of too many things, or whatever the case is.
I didn't come on and say "I'm just not getting any audio - help!". I tried to provide as much info as I could. This is a unique problem for me which I've never run into with a build, I've checked and all of the component values are correct. To be honest, does this sound like it would be an issue with an incorrect component, a short, etc.., seeing as it is totally working, just the CV is bleeding through? Even if you just have no idea, I guess I would hope it wouldn't be too much to at least get a message telling me so, and I can live with it taking a few days or whatever to get even that. Sorry for being impatient and bumping the thread after a day. You obviously have a lot more experience than I do and might have some idea what might be causing this. If not, fair enough. I don't think what I'm asking is unreasonable - in other words, again, I'm not vaguely saying "it just doesn't work - fix it for me."
Anyway, guess it's clear to me how it works now. Hope this project won't just turn into a huge, expensive paperweight if no one has any suggestions for me, because I'm still stumped.
Sorry about my rant as well. I don't want to start a stupid flame war with people jumping in here, because I know you are widely respected, as you should be, and I do my best to speak to you directly here because I am frustrated, but with respect at the same time, because we all deserve that.
jhaible wrote:
Numbertalk, I did not miss your forum messages, and not your PM either.
I'm coming home *tired* from a day full of work in my "main" job.
When I started to focus on the EM forum for communcation about the PCB projects, I was hoping that those who have successfully built a project, help me helping others to get theirs running.
Even though I've tried to answer every question in the past, even when most problems in the past have been due to wrong component values, bad solder joints, wrong wiring etc, I tried to help where I could. But It appears that I've come to my limits. When I start to feel guilty because I cannot give a service-hotline-like help with quick turnaround (even though I never promised such a thing), something must have gone wrong. When I have to explain why I take the liberty to answer a question of somebody else, or spend time debugging the upcoming vocoder project, or - even worse - do something to simply relax myself - all the while a burning question of a not-working Flanger is looming over my head: Then something has gone completely wrong. Then having made my hobby into a business has been a failure, and I'd better get back to a full-time job in the automation industry.
Guys, don't expect me to answer every question in person. I'm confident thiose who have successfully built and understood a certain project, can help others to debug theirs. I has to work like this, or this whole little business of mine will crash, sooner or later.
I don't want to start a stupid flame war with people jumping in here,
Neither do I.
No hurt feelings and all - I just want to do one thing right now: to go to bed and get some sleep. Thanks for understanding.
[ETA] I sent you a refund for your payment for the other projects you'd pre-ordered, as of your request. That's the last thing business-related I'm doing today. Over and out, going to sleep now.
JH. Last edited by jhaible on Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
I found earlier in the thread that the LFO has a triangle and not a ramp/saw. I still want to verify that the voltage level of the slew waveform is lower than that of the "ramp" triangle, at higher frequencies it appears - when I turn the rate knob down the voltage goes up, just for this particular waveform. I'm assuming this must be correct but if one of you don't mind confirming would appreciate it.
I found earlier in the thread that the LFO has a triangle and not a ramp/saw. I still want to verify that the voltage level of the slew waveform is lower than that of the "ramp" triangle, at higher frequencies it appears - when I turn the rate knob down the voltage goes up, just for this particular waveform. I'm assuming this must be correct but if one of you don't mind confirming would appreciate it.
Thanks.
If all your components and wiring are verified did you check every millimeter of the solder side with a huge magnifying glass ?,thats what i do,and if something is wrong usualy i find it,sometimes only after 3-4 complete checks.
Juergen has always been very possitive and helpfull and you have to keep in mind that when you buy pcb's you don't pay to get ANY respect or service,you pay for the pcb,no matter how much you buy .. sooo,its better not to much enoying him with streams of debug pm's,so he keeps pumping out pcb's
EDIT: After all i want he designs that BBD pcb Last edited by TekniK on Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:49 am; edited 1 time in total
Even though I've tried to answer every question in the past, even when most problems in the past have been due to wrong component values, bad solder joints, wrong wiring etc,
-Wrong positioning of components
-forgotten to solder
-Solder drops between pads
-Blown components due to maintain long heating while soldering
-forgotten earth pad in between or between panel components and pcb
-Damage of mechanical components due to long heating while soldering
Thanks. No worries, possibly sduck can verify. I'm going to assume this part of my LFO is working, though, and am going to continue trying to track down the bleedthrough. For the record, I think the LFO is not the source of the bleedthrough issue. The fact that the V/Oct and external mod inputs are bleeding through as well tells me it's something further along in the Clock Generator or Delay parts of the circuit.
I'm trying to figure out where the LFO could possibly even bleed into the output. I don't see anywhere it mixes with the audio signal besides the Envelope Generator, and it's I don't think that's the issue, and when the clock signals reach the BBDs. I'm trying to understand the schematic - I see the LFO signal is summed with the Manual, External Mod and Envelope Follower voltages, something is done with it from there (not sure what is going on in the circuit), then it merges with the V/Oct & Fine Tune voltages, goes through the CA3086, and then it looks to me as though it's all converted to a straight clock signal by the CMOS chips. I'm not familiar enough with how BBDs work or with CMOS chips, so not sure how the LFO signals still retain their waveform to effectively modulate the signal while being converted to a straight clock pulse, but I am going to use my scope to trace from the output back and see what I can find. Is it possible it's from the wires being too closely wrapped together? I would think not, but I'm at a loss here. Could a faulty/cheap 3086 cause this?
If I ever get past this and get it working I do have just a couple things I need further clarified with regards to calibration, which seems like something I could reasonably expect to have JH answer when he has a moment. I know he's covered it, I'm just not 100% sure on where/how to measure check a couple of the clock settings. Anyway, until I even see if I get this working I'll wait.
TekniK wrote:
numbertalk wrote:
sduck or TekniK -
I found earlier in the thread that the LFO has a triangle and not a ramp/saw. I still want to verify that the voltage level of the slew waveform is lower than that of the "ramp" triangle, at higher frequencies it appears - when I turn the rate knob down the voltage goes up, just for this particular waveform. I'm assuming this must be correct but if one of you don't mind confirming would appreciate it.
Thanks.
Hi,i have no idea how to measure this,am total noob in electronics in fact.
so if you clearly write down what where i have to measure i can do that.
Other then that i can say my flanger is properly working,the only isue i had was wrong resistors due to a wrong tagged resistor bag by the component supplier,in fact this shit was spread out on several JH pcb's i did built and juergen helped me 2 times fast out with simple hinds to trigger my mind so i was able to track fast the problem
Whats sure is your lfo sucks,if all your components and wiring are verified did you check every millimeter of the solder side with a huge magnifying glass ?,thats what i do,and if something is wrong usualy i find it,sometimes only after 3-4 complete checks.
Btw i did buy 5 of those flanger pcb's ,all are populated,i can sell you one if you like ,i have still 2 for sale
Juergen has always been very possitive and helpfull and you have to keep in mind that when you buy pcb's you don't pay to get ANY respect or service,you pay for the pcb,no matter how much you buy .. sooo,its better not to much enoying him with streams of debug pm's,so he keeps pumping out pcb's
not sure,but when i got bleedthrough from a signal its always related to wrong/missing earth pad/wire,or a not right powered/earthed component (cold solder etc) or solder drop shortcutting pads.
If its much complicated usualy notting works,the fact that we are starting from a tested pcb it most be something small.
not sure,but when i got bleedthrough from a signal its always related to wrong/missing earth pad/wire,or a not right powered/earthed component (cold solder etc) or solder drop shortcutting pads.
If its much complicated usualy notting works,the fact that we are starting from a tested pcb it most be something small.
Exactly - I figure it must be 1 stupid small thing - it's not like I'm having any major problems with it not passing audio or anything else going wrong with it at all.
Thanks for the suggestion! Going to go over it again when I get home from work this evening and see what I can find.
Haven't found any wrong components, any shorts, any errors. So puzzling - there is no signal present at pin 5 of U16 then at pins 8 & 12, there it is - it's appearing there first at the output of U16. I tried swapping U16 out with another TDA1022 just in case but no luck - same thing. It's possible the chip I swapped it with has a problem as well, but I removed U16 completely and did not see this problem then originating from U18 - for example if it were something odd like the clock signal somehow bleeding into the signal line of the chip - and these are all from the same batch I believe. Frustrating.
Ok, just did some quick testing of mine as regards to duplicating your situation.
First, I also have lfo bleedthrough, very similar to the video you posted. However, it's not loud enough to be a problem when running the thing at normal signal levels - I could only hear the bleedthrough with no input signal and the levels cranked. And it's only audible in the higher rate settings - from about 3 oclock and up, and with the lfo mod knob cranked - not settings I would be using most of the time.
I also have the difference in level between the ramp (really a triangle) and slew (really a square wave with some slew), also affected by how fast the rate is set for. This doesn't concern me very much as there's a lot of range in the lfo mod knob. And I don't really like the sound of the slew setting anyway, but I'm glad it's there - maybe I'll find a way to like it eventually.
So it could be that you have a correctly working device - or perhaps that we've both made the same mistake(?). For normal usage this thing sounds amazing - in fact I should probably do another demo video now that I've had some time with it, to show off some of the luxier sounds it can get. I have a patch of just a slowly evolving sound from the dual wogglebug going through a slow flange setting with a decent amount of resonance, going into the FS1a which turns it into a rich stereo spread - amazing sounds!
Thank you so much sduck. This makes me feel somewhat better. So even S+H mode is ok with an input signal? I agree with you, it's not as bad with an input signal, though I also play guitar and would love to use this with guitar, and if I'm feeding it a dry guitar signal, at least with my initial testing, it was a bit more prevalent even with that signal, though I should re-test it now that I've played with it more. And same as you, it's only really bad at higher rates of the LFO. There is actually a slow "tick" in the output at the lower levels, but this is masked more easily by a strong input signal.
Are you also getting bleedthrough from the external mod input?
Also, S&H mode produced a lot of "popping" in the output for me, even with a strong signal. Is this the case in yours as well - more so than slew or ramp?
Thanks again for the info. I really appreciate it.
Cheers.
sduck wrote:
Ok, just did some quick testing of mine as regards to duplicating your situation.
First, I also have lfo bleedthrough, very similar to the video you posted. However, it's not loud enough to be a problem when running the thing at normal signal levels - I could only hear the bleedthrough with no input signal and the levels cranked. And it's only audible in the higher rate settings - from about 3 oclock and up, and with the lfo mod knob cranked - not settings I would be using most of the time.
I also have the difference in level between the ramp (really a triangle) and slew (really a square wave with some slew), also affected by how fast the rate is set for. This doesn't concern me very much as there's a lot of range in the lfo mod knob. And I don't really like the sound of the slew setting anyway, but I'm glad it's there - maybe I'll find a way to like it eventually.
So it could be that you have a correctly working device - or perhaps that we've both made the same mistake(?). For normal usage this thing sounds amazing - in fact I should probably do another demo video now that I've had some time with it, to show off some of the luxier sounds it can get. I have a patch of just a slowly evolving sound from the dual wogglebug going through a slow flange setting with a decent amount of resonance, going into the FS1a which turns it into a rich stereo spread - amazing sounds!
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