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SubG (deactivated)
Joined: Oct 09, 2009 Posts: 70
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Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:56 am Post subject:
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EdisonRex wrote: |
I was wondering when you would be back, Teknik. |
Hello Paul, since October 2009! |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24079 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 278
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Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:47 am Post subject:
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FYI - SubG was formerly known here as TekniK and he was banned from using the forums. This was the reason to close the SubG account and it has nothing to do with the discussion in this thread. _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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MadScientist
Joined: Nov 28, 2011 Posts: 63 Location: Denmark
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Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:50 am Post subject:
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Another little FYI, now the thread is alive anyway:
Earlier in the thread it was suggested I might not have done my homework before posting. Currently I am trying to make sure that I am indeed not wasting people's time before adding more items for debate. By definition I won't know how long this will take, nor the time required to rephrase what I am rambling about.
So no need to hold your collective breaths etc., etc.
- Frank. |
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EdisonRex
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Joined: Mar 07, 2007 Posts: 4579 Location: London, UK
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Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:49 am Post subject:
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No worries, take your time. There's only about 4,000 posts of new circuits and discussions on them for you to go through _________________ Garret: It's so retro.
EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.
Home,My Studio,and another view |
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toppobrillo
Joined: Dec 10, 2005 Posts: 766 Location: oakland, ca
G2 patch files: 1
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Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:04 pm Post subject:
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regarding simple datasheet app style schems with copywrite notices: use your head, not complicated to suss out for anyone who knows whats what. dont use someone elses drawings or pcb art commercially in any case, without asking.
regarding other, more "copywrite worthy" works: dont copy art, drawings or circuits and use them commercially without permission. or do, be an asshole, alienate yourself from the community, please, we don't want you!
its really as simple as that. |
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LFLab
Joined: Dec 17, 2009 Posts: 497 Location: Rosmalen, Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:37 am Post subject:
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+1 |
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:52 am Post subject:
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MadScientist wrote: | Another little FYI, now the thread is alive anyway:
Earlier in the thread it was suggested I might not have done my homework before posting. Currently I am trying to make sure that I am indeed not wasting people's time before adding more items for debate. By definition I won't know how long this will take, nor the time required to rephrase what I am rambling about.
So no need to hold your collective breaths etc., etc.
- Frank. |
I've read your initial posts a few times. I can certainly understand your line of thought and why you found it interesting to discuss this in a laid back manner. I don´t think you have been raising anything controversial. Even though I think your argument is absolutely valid I'm not sure it actually applies to what is going on in SDIY here at electro-music.com. If it had then a huge lot of the projects here wouldn't have been been successful. BTW, I did some online research and it suggests that your argument could very well apply to some of the HIFI DIY nuttery communities.
What your argument leads up to is a call for innovation. Cool. We all like innovation. Still, I do think we have seen a lot of innovation here at electro-music.com and I cannot see any signs of staleness or stagnation. The fairly large volume of projects that are all about cloning vintage designs is as expected. You wouldn´t have SDIY without the cloning projects. This is neither good nor bad. It is just a feature.
What we might discuss more in depth could possibly be the "missing" projects.. what should be going on.. but isn´t.? .. or is there anything missing?
If there is a problem re innovation, perhaps it is the builders and synthesists who are the conservative soulless twats and not the circuit designers..? We could have been building amazing stuff.. but instead we are still building yet another Korg MS-20 VCF or Moog what have you ? Perhaps the analog vintage hype has gone a bit far. Are we building stuff in order to add mythological devices to the hoard rather than stuff that does interesting things. Or not? A good discussion is better than no discussion. That being said, I don´t see any glaring problematic issues with the current state of affairs here. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:12 am Post subject:
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MadScientist wrote: |
Earlier in the thread it was suggested I might not have done my homework before posting. |
There are some inherent problems with trying to make a coherent and informative narrative out of the bulk of posts here. Most of us old hands here have a somewhat crossthread simultaneous reading experience.. as we read and contribute to threads as stuff happens.. reading one thread to the end won´t reveal some of the finer nuances.. and there will be references to stuff that will be hard to figure out in retrospect. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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frijitz
Joined: May 04, 2007 Posts: 1734 Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:03 pm Post subject:
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elektro80 wrote: | What we might discuss more in depth could possibly be the "missing" projects.. what should be going on.. but isn´t.? .. |
You may never know. One of my major projects is being ripped off as we speak. The same old tired legal arguments are being made ... he combined it with something else so it is new, etc. I've already taken down a bunch of pages from my site and may continue to do so. I seriously doubt I'll be doing much more analog synth design, if any. This thread certainly hasn't helped any.
Quote: | If there is a problem re innovation, perhaps it is the builders and synthesists who are the conservative soulless twats and not the circuit designers..? We could have been building amazing stuff.. but instead we are still building yet another Korg MS-20 VCF or Moog have you ? Perhaps the analog vintage hype has gone a bit far. Are we building stuff in order to add mythological devices to the hoard rather than stuff that does interesting things. |
That's not only hitting the nail on the head, it's driving it all the way through the board.
Ian |
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:10 pm Post subject:
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frijitz wrote: | That's not only hitting the nail on the head, it's driving it all the way through the board.
Ian |
I imagined you would enjoy that one. And I tried to find some stuff on your site that I knew was supposed to be there in order to give an example of what is truly interesting.. and it was gone... Arrrgh! _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:22 pm Post subject:
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Ian, don´t let this thread.. at least the first section of it.. put you off synth design. I'm reading Frank's posts slightly different.. scandinavia and all that.. the ethnic angle.. so.. anyways.. his main point is the innovation bit.. and the copyright thing comes out of the RF and HiFi nuttery communities. Frankly, if anything is stifling innovation in SDIY and synth design in general .. the goat sacrificing copyright druids and the honour system are not the ones to be dragged out into the parking lot and put to rest. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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MadScientist
Joined: Nov 28, 2011 Posts: 63 Location: Denmark
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:42 pm Post subject:
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Okay, think I have done a fair amount of digging in the archives by now, and as far as I can see, then what I am trying to say has not really been discussed in this way before. Given the reactions in this thread, this probably means I have either explained myself poorly, or I have missed something obvious somewhere.
Some of what follows will be Captain Obvious to at least part of the readers, I hope people won't mind reading the paragraphs of known background knowledge once again.
[This will get long, sorry…]
*) I need to introduce a new descriptor for the relationship between circuit designers and the general synth community. Both radio amateurs and synth DIY people recognize their peers whenever possible (IE. when a source is known), and grant them certain privileges as such (regardless of actual law on the subject). For the sake of clarity I would like to call this relationship 'community recognition', 'CR', which often also grants certain privileges.
These privileges appear to be somewhat similar between the two communities. For instance a person, who introduces a new design and makes a kit/PCB/widget based on it, will in general not get any competition in the marketplace from his peers. (I actually don't know what would happen in case someone start to make copies of radio amateur designs for sale on eBay, I don't remember hearing about it happening. I would be surprised if it hadn't though…)
For obvious reasons radio amateurs tend to stay well connected on both the personal and international level, so most everyone are aware where a kit originated, and who makes/sells it. At least it is usually easy to find out if needed. It probably helps that each individual has his or her unique identifier within the community, the personal call sign assigned by the authorities within the different countries. New designs are most often associated with the call sign of the inventor, so the relevant homepage is usually only a quick web search away.
*) Still speaking in general terms, then people within both communities seem to have similar views of when a design definitely and without question should be covered by/granted CR. It usually means the design is the result of a significant expenditure of resources for development, in the form of time and/or money (frequently both).
*) One example of this from the synth world might be the Klee Sequencer, which I understand is a team effort between several individual members of the E-M community. Most reasonable individuals would say the Klee Sequencer is far beyond the border of any doubt as to whether it qualify for CR.
*) A simpler example worthy of CR might be Serge's Resonant Equalizer. I feel this way, because I doubt the peculiar spacing of the EQ bands would have occurred to someone like myself (meaning someone without much synth experience), if I had been asked to design an EQ for a modular. (Of course arguments like these are like measuring the length of an elastic rubber band…)
*) On the other hand it is also clear that there are schematics, which most people would agree couldn't possible be covered by CR, for instance due to being ether extremely well known or being way too simple. The example used in the thread linked by EdisonRex above, was that of a single op-amp wired as a voltage follower (my own example would have been a schematic, consisting of a single resistor labelled 'X' for resistance and connected to two terminals, A and B). If this simple schematic was granted CR, then no-one but the original publisher could use it without permission. Which is a ridiculous proposition, of course.
*) All this means that there is a fuzzy border somewhere, which separates all schematics of the DIY electronics world into those granted CR, and those, which are considered part of the common knowledge base.
What I am trying to say is that - for some reason I don't understand - this border appear to be placed differently in the two communities, radio amateurs versus synth DIYers. In particular then many common circuits, which have been well known to the engineering world for ages, seem covered by CR among the synth DIY crowd (or at least the authors ask for it in various ways).
*) Another aspect of this problem, which doesn't appear to have been discussed here on E-M (what I could easily find), is the problem with limits imposed by practicality and the laws of nature. For instance if you wish to design something, which required the use of a commonly available OTA in a DIP chip, then you are pretty much limited to using a LM13600/13700, which electrically is very nearly the same thing as 2x CA3080.
On top of this are the limitations in available sizes of Polystyrene caps, and resistances which need to be neither too high (noise) or too low (current/expensive op-amps required), the frequency range of audio (20 - 20'000Hz), 10Vpp input and output signal levels, plus the standard 100k input resistance for modules.
*) It may also be worth mentioning the idea of an optimal design. At least the radio amateurs recognize that you will frequently have a situation, where a particular function can optimally be solved via a particular schematic. Given a set of constraints you will be taking a step backwards, unless you do something *exactly* like *this*. This can of course also be true for very simple functional modules.
*) The result of all this is that in many cases large parts of your basic designs frequently draw themselves, figuratively speaking. This even without having any domain knowledge from the synth world. For instance if I attempted to design a simple OTA based VCA, having just learned of the concept in connection with modular synths, I would almost certainly end up with something within a stone-throw's distance of Thomas Henry's VCA-1. While I don't know how Mr. Henry feel about people using his designs without permission, my concern would be how a third party within the community would perceive my 'independent' design, if I claimed I had designed it myself.
*) Similarly with some of the other, very basic building blocks for modular synths:
- VCF based on ye olde 4 op-amp state variable filter, giving low-, high-, bandpass and notch filters. My design would probably end up looking like one of the existing designs out there. My attempt would almost certainly not end up being as refined as some of the other designs out there, but the similarities would be striking I suspect.
- Simple triangle or saw core VCO, followed by some form of waveshaping to generate PWM etc. I know of approximately one way of generating a temperature compensated exponential current source, and it seems so do the rest of you…
Just for kicks I actually tried designing my own VCO, and have the CMOS 555 core running on protoboard (though I'm sure *somebody* is already using a 555 for this ). However that is where I got sidetracked into this discussion, as I attempted to add all the remaining elements *without* stepping on too many toes.
To me it feels odd that it apparently isn't possible for a new designer to make *any* yet ever so primitive analog synth, without at the same time stepping on the virtual toes of quite a few people (and probably several at once). I may be wrong, but it seems to me that for many of the basic functions, people try to jump through hoops in order to make their designs sufficiently unique, perhaps in order to be covered by CR.
My naive suggestion might have been to just recognize as a community that for at least some parts of the basic synth functionality, there really are only a few practical and distinct methods for accomplishing a particular task.
[This arbitrarily and abruptly ends part one of my reply to the thread, as it is getting late here. The attentive reader will recognize there is quite a lot more to follow, with many subjects not yet touched. This will probably not be until next year/after the weekend though…]
Frank. |
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andrewF
Joined: Dec 29, 2006 Posts: 1176 Location: australia
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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:24 am Post subject:
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frijitz wrote: |
You may never know. One of my major projects is being ripped off as we speak. The same old tired legal arguments are being made ... he combined it with something else so it is new, etc. I've already taken down a bunch of pages from my site and may continue to do so. I seriously doubt I'll be doing much more analog synth design, if any. This thread certainly hasn't helped any.
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Perhaps this post is better suited to a PM, but i hope it gives some perspective as to why we should cherish people like Ian Fritz, Ken Stone, Ray Wilson and others. I could write a similar tale about the influence Ken Stone has had on my life too, but for now -
Ian, I hope your enthusiasm will return. Its a shame the selfish actions of one person will curtail your output. I suspect this kind of behaviour has soured DIY for a few others over the years.
I'm not one to gush, but your run of chaos circuits put me onto a line of thinking and research that has led me to now being halfway thru a PhD on nonlinear circuits and chaos. Even the scholarship that helps pay my bills was partially awarded due to a paper on the chaotic nature of the Q&D VCF, which you identified.
To say your circuits are 'life-changing' is somewhat dramatic, but literally true. I would never have imagined that I would do a Phd in electronics, but being introduced to chaos really got me intrigued and curious enough to push this far.
Whatever you choose to do, you have my gratitude & respect......and like it or not I will probably bug you with questions from time to time. |
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fonik
Joined: Jun 07, 2006 Posts: 3950 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:00 am Post subject:
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frijitz wrote: | ...The same old tired legal arguments are being made ... |
that's what i am thinking: people tend to invoke legal arguments to circumvent ethics.
IMHO the question is: what is the right thing to do? ethics try to solve this , and legislation tries to model this poor ethical attempt. so the closer you get to legal arguments, the more you get away from the question: what is the right thing to do _________________
cheers,
matthias
____________
Big Boss at fonitronik
Tech Buddy at Random*Source |
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frijitz
Joined: May 04, 2007 Posts: 1734 Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54
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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:34 pm Post subject:
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andrew --
Thanks for the nice post. I'm glad I was able to play some role in your professional development, although I'm sure you would have done well whatever path you chose.
Ian |
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Dougster
Joined: Sep 20, 2005 Posts: 272 Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:36 pm Post subject:
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Frank,
Just when I told myself I was going to stop contributing to this thread...
I think there's a huge difference between the radio world and the synth world that you aren't taking into account. Outside of amateur/DIY radio, there is almost no market, unless you make the (rather large) leap to supplying military grade hardware. Most (all?) radio people, by their nature, are technically adept and knowledgeable about their gear, the designers, and the community. Just listen to a conversation between a couple of hams and what is the main subject? Gear! Heehee...
The DIY synth world, however, is a subset of a larger market that includes builders, collectors, composers, performers and casual users/players, many of whom couldn't design or build an electronic circuit if their lives depended upon it. Many of these people are (IMHO) clueless artist-types who define themselves by the fact that they have some piece of gear that someone else doesn't have. I've met sound designers who claim ownership of particular sounds, even though anyone with the same piece of gear would have the same sounds. In a related vein, the film scoring/composition world is filled with people who have built their own sound sets, hiring orchestras for private sampling sessions and paying sound designers to not distribute sound sets to any one else.
This adds up to an environment that is ripe for rip-offs, higher profits for unscrupulous types, arguments between letter-of-the-law and spirit-of-the-law types, and a general lack of reward for the creative people who come up with the ideas in the first place. Hence my previous reference to Atlas Shrugged, which deals with this kind of thing. I'm not surprised when people like Ian want to withdraw and head for Galt's Gulch...
Regards,
Doug _________________ Once you start down the modular path, forever will it dominate your destiny!
Every DIY person should own a copy of Electronotes: http://electronotes.netfirms.com
Blue LEDs are evil. |
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frijitz
Joined: May 04, 2007 Posts: 1734 Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54
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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:46 pm Post subject:
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fonik wrote: | ...that's what i am thinking: people tend to invoke legal arguments to circumvent ethics. |
I'm coming to the conclusion that the main offenders just plain don't have any ethics. They were wired at birth without the usual circuits for fair play. They think legal arguments are sufficient because they just plain can't understand any ethical considerations. For example, BL writes that he doesn't understand what all the fuss is about. But what surprises me most is the amount of support they get from other members. It's like maybe the forums attract people trolling for whatever they are "entitled to" or "deserve".
Oh well, back to my Verilog tutorials.
Ian |
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LFLab
Joined: Dec 17, 2009 Posts: 497 Location: Rosmalen, Netherlands
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Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:12 am Post subject:
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You'd think that in a rather small community like the modular synth community these copycats would be tarred and feathered and run out of town, driving them out of business. Maybe this market/community is a lot bigger than i thought. |
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richardc64
Joined: Jun 01, 2006 Posts: 679 Location: NYC
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Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:39 am Post subject:
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Is it time for some levity yet?
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"Just listen to a conversation between a couple of hams and what is the main subject?" |
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_________________ Revenge is a dish best served with a fork... to the eye |
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Dougster
Joined: Sep 20, 2005 Posts: 272 Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
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Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:55 am Post subject:
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ROFL, that flowchart is amazing! Love it!
I think objectivism is, like pure communism, great in theory, but mostly worthless, since human beings are all shades of gray. There really is no pure black or pure white.
I believe that you have to walk the walk, live the life, be the example, before you can expect others to adhere to any expectations. Ms. Rand couldn't live up to her own standards...
Regards.
Doug (I have a hard enough time living up to my own standards...)
P.S. happy new year! _________________ Once you start down the modular path, forever will it dominate your destiny!
Every DIY person should own a copy of Electronotes: http://electronotes.netfirms.com
Blue LEDs are evil. |
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fonik
Joined: Jun 07, 2006 Posts: 3950 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:52 am Post subject:
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Dougster wrote: | I think objectivism is, like pure communism, great in theory, but mostly worthless, since human beings are all shades of gray. There really is no pure black or pure white. |
i was thinking along these lines, too: the question, what is the right thing to do, is too complex to be modelled by legislation. _________________
cheers,
matthias
____________
Big Boss at fonitronik
Tech Buddy at Random*Source |
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MadScientist
Joined: Nov 28, 2011 Posts: 63 Location: Denmark
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Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:42 am Post subject:
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Dougster wrote: | I believe that you have to walk the walk, live the life, be the example, before you can expect others to adhere to any expectations. Ms. Rand couldn't live up to her own standards... |
That is actually the point I am trying to raise: How does a newcomer like myself, background in electronics, science and all, contribute to what is essentially a closed-up fine mesh of 'copyright'?
The level at which people claim CR for their creations is extremely low, as seen from my viewpoint. The net result is that anything I might post as new risk being shot down by the community as being plagiarism, because there is likely to be 'known' building blocks in there.
Famous example: I like tubes, have been working with them for 3 decades, and might have an idea or two. For instance I have been doing the initial motions for building a simple analog 'computer', which would calculate the Lorenz Attractor in real time, using tubes. Not unlike - YET DECIDEDLY DISTINCT FROM - some of Ian Fritz' designs. Note that this has been done quite a while ago when using op amps. This would not be a practical solution for me though, due to the number of tubes required. Some optimizations would be required...
I might also be able to design a simple voltage controlled shortwave radio receiver for the 31m AM broadcast band, which some members have talked about on occasion. Tube powered and running from standard, dual polarity power rails, of course.
Yet unfortunately some gentleman by the name of Eric Barbour of Metasonix fame has claimed a huge swath of tube ideas for himself. That is how broad his claims are. (Note the legal blurb at the bottom of some of the pages).
For all I know Mr. Barbour may be in good faith, and his accomplishments may look legit as seen through the eyes of someone with little experience with tubes. Unfortunately, whether people wish to acknowledge this or not, then some of his claims would completely shut many of my tube building activities down if I respected them. He is effectively claiming copyright on some of the tube equivalents of fundamental building blocks, like op amps or diodes, and his claims are up to 80 (eighty) years out of date.
As far as I can tell, then all the analog synth basics are off-limits for new designs, and all newcomers are supposed to start with Adam & Eve. In turn this shuts down development of truly new ideas, because there is nowhere to 'stand' without annoying current members of the community.
The reason why I started this thread is that I realized that I - and I suspect a lot of others like me with a professional background - am apparently better off standing outside the community, instead of fighting the people from within. If some day I did develop something new, then I could just make a business for it, and sell it to you all. My suspicion is that this is why we don't see much participation from the commercial developers. They appear most likely to be flamed to crisps for inane 'copyright infringements', like being accused of using triangle core oscillators, if they published their schematics.
It hardly seems *possible* to make something trivial without breaching somebody's 'copyright'. (Third time I said it, will probably be ignored this time as well). Any house, no matter how tall, needs a foundation. All of which you people have firmly claimed for yourselves.
I have no reason to contribute, as it is likely to cause me grief more than anything else. "That is my VCO core?! WTF?!" (Triangle integrator detected...)
Some of these points have been raised before I did, in the threads linked previously. Yet every time we end up with people happily waving the moral flag, instead of suggesting solutions. Do I just ignore Mr. Metasonix? Would I have the (moral) support of the community if I did?
Small correction: The radio amateur business world seems vastly larger to me, compared to the synth community. I wouldn't start a business selling synth DIY stuff for the money. For that I'd just stay in the amateur radio/general electronics business communities (the two are heavily intertwined).
Dougster,
I do agree with your other points though. There are probably a much higher fraction of 'professionals' in the amateur radio world. Unfortunately this is also part of the problem in my view. If there are few people with 'long memories' within the synth community, then new - and largely self taught - members are less likely to be told about previous achievements contained within the communal knowledge base of electronics. It is cool when someone rediscovers a fun circuit, but IMO that doesn't entitle him for 'copyright' on it, if it has been around for half a century or more.
I had a longer reply in mind, including more personalized commentary. This will have to do for now, though.
- Frank. |
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Boogdish
Joined: Sep 21, 2009 Posts: 122 Location: Bloomington, IN
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Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:50 pm Post subject:
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I would like to echo what Doug said, that the best way to change things is to be the example. Each of us will draw the fine line in our heads as to what should or shouldn't be covered by CR. As a community, not everyone will agree.
I think the best way to influence people about this isn't through carefully thought out arguments, it's by creating a design that people like. Show people what they are missing when they respect frivolous CR. I think contributing to the community is the only way to gain clout. And it's also possible that you've misjudged us as to what we would or wouldn't accept as being an original design.
Like you've said, you're an outsider to the community. If you put up a design that gets taken down or causes you to get banned, you're back to where you started, other than your time/energy, you don't have much to lose. If a loss of time/energy is unacceptable to you, then you've made a good decision by not contributing.
Also, I think that by the fact that you're being conscientious about these sorts of issues, you'd be an asset. Questioning ethics raises awareness of them, which hopefully will result in more ethical behavior. |
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Dougster
Joined: Sep 20, 2005 Posts: 272 Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
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Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:24 pm Post subject:
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MadScientist wrote: | That is actually the point I am trying to raise: How does a newcomer like myself, background in electronics, science and all, contribute to what is essentially a closed-up fine mesh of 'copyright'? |
How would you break into or contribute to any other science or technology group? It occurs to me that you seem to be comingling two separate issues. I don't believe you will be shot down for contributions to the community, provided you quote your sources and provide some type of value-add. The problem would be if you took an existing design and claimed it as your own or sold it without getting permission. Yes, I understand there is a gray area here; how much do you have to change a design before you can call it your own?
Quote: | The reason why I started this thread is that I realized that I - and I suspect a lot of others like me with a professional background - are apparently better off standing outside the community, instead of fighting the people from within. |
It seems to me you are jealous of the people who are already in the center of the DIY synth world, and you want to be part of that world without earning your place via the traditional path of contribution, interaction and peer review. Do you really have anything new to contribute?
Quote: | It hardly seems *possible* to make something trivial without breaching somebody's 'copyright'. (Third time I said it, will probably be ignored this time as well). |
Again, I will say that I think you are mistaking things. It is perfectly fine to use those ideas in your designs as long as you provide attribution. If you decide to make pcbs and/or kits that include a significant portion of someone else's design, you should get permission.
Quote: | Small correction: The radio amateur business world seems vastly larger to me, compared to the synth community. |
I don't think we ever compared the *size* of each community, only the relative sizes of the subsets within... And if you include Korg, Roland, Yamaha, and all the other synth manufacturers, can the amateur radio business really compare?
Quote: | If there are few people with 'long memories' within the synth community, then new - and largely self taught - members are less likely to be told about previous achievements contained within the communal knowledge base of electronics. |
I've always wondered about what "self taught" really means. In many ways I could claim to be self taught, that is, I haven't taken synth building classes at a university or had face-to-face sessions with any teachers or experts. However, I didn't start from scratch learning electricity, magnetism, or the physics of semiconductors, I learned from books and magazines, email lists and web sites. I looked at existing schematics and tried to figure out how they worked. I've read Horowitz and Hill, Lancaster, Jung, Klein, Thomas Henry, Walt Chamberlin, Electronotes, etc, etc.
I'm guessing most, if not all, of us follow a similar path to knowledge. We aren't plugged into the matrix and information can't be downloaded directly into our brains. (Or ARE we?) We all have to learn on our own. The lucky ones of us get to interact directly with the most knowledgeable teachers, but really, a teacher is just a guidepost along the path, we have to do the work of learning ourselves...
I don't think there's any conspiracy here. Like many other areas of life, you have to pay your dues and earn respect.
Regards,
Doug _________________ Once you start down the modular path, forever will it dominate your destiny!
Every DIY person should own a copy of Electronotes: http://electronotes.netfirms.com
Blue LEDs are evil. |
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MadScientist
Joined: Nov 28, 2011 Posts: 63 Location: Denmark
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Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:55 pm Post subject:
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Dougster wrote: | It seems to me you are jealous of the people who are already in the center of the DIY synth world, and you want to be part of that world without earning your place via the traditional path of contribution, interaction and peer review. |
Hold that thought for a moment, please.
Dougster wrote: | Do you really have anything new to contribute? |
How about a full, written tutorial, light in math, on how to design your own mains powered linear power supplies, thermal design included and followed by an online Q/A session? I'm not even sure there is one online anywhere as we chat.
Could contribute that as quickly as I can type it in, if I am allowed to make some copies of relevant graphs from my books. This subject seems so simple to most, that many gets it wrong, equipment manufacturers included.
If this would be seen as acceptable as a contribution to the community, then we can let this question rest for the remainder of the discussion.
To get back to your initial question then no, no jealousy. Maybe I am lucky, and I have completely misjudged the situation here, a thought several posters seem to have been trying to nudge me toward. In which case common sense will eventually prevail, once my s/n level increases.
Unfortunately I have been in this situation before, in connection with the Hi-Fi DIY community, and over there the situation got a bit ugly once I jumped into the water. Turns out I was not the first to get stung, have come across other individuals with the same experiences.
The CR issue I raised is a front, the real problem is the role of money within the community. Once people feel you may hurt their income source(s), whether by coincidence or directly through competition, the gloves comes off (among the Hi-Fi crowd). If you are not one of the community leaders, then expect things to get ugly.
For instance shortly before Christmas I had an idea for a new type of module. The idea may actually turn out to be daft, or maybe it was tried and discarded 20 years ago, I don't know. My lack of experience at this point prevents me from saying one way or the other.
What I can say, however, is that if my idea works, and the community likes it, my widget might theoretically obliterate some of the business opportunities within the synth DIY community. (I will be the first to admit this may be a stretch though.)
By common sense my idea is legit, no rights have been violated, progress have been made (if you like my widget). But some people may end up loosing money/income.
Given the reactions I have gotten in this thread, I am sort of dubious whether I even want to tell the community more about my plans, or whether I wish to develop it in the first place, once I have a synth to integrate it with.
(I will try to re-read everything and do a follow-up. Seems there are many good points I need to comment on.)
- Frank. |
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