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frijitz
Joined: May 04, 2007
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 Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:23 pm Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: |
The MS20 can be percieved as rich and warm based on the context and how it is used. That being said, is it OK if I drag the term "analougue warmth" out into the parking lot and semtex it to death and beyond? |
That's fine with me. But my Roland JV synth has a parameter called "analog feel" and I find it does a reasonable job of adding some natural sounding variations similar to what acoustic instruments have. So there is something here to think about, but I don't think it's the same as the "Moogey jitter" that people like to talk about to explain anlg wrmth.  |
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Nosferatu
Joined: Jul 27, 2007
Posts: 234
Location: Planet Rock.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Thru-Zero VCOs |
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del
Last edited by Nosferatu on Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:32 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Funky40
Joined: Sep 24, 2005
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Location: Swiss
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:04 am Post subject:
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I'm also very interested in analog FM synthesis.
As i understand Frijitz' explanations it isn't really successful to do.
Isn't it ?
Is there really no chance to get a VCO good enough for FM synthesis ?
If there is a chance, but maybe with a big challenge behind to get it done,
then maybe 2 Versions of a TZ-VCO would be fine.
Just an Idea |
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v-un-v
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Joined: May 16, 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:14 am Post subject:
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| frijitz wrote: |
Why can't you warm it up by filtering it a tad to boost the bass, adding some dynamic vibrato, adding some chiff or chirp on the attack envelope, adding a second detuned osc etc? |
Ahh- but that's a different kind of 'warmth' though isn't it? 
I don't give a monkeys either over this 'warmth' thing either- well err tell a lie, yes I do to an extent, but I did have a hang up over what the definition of lo-fi is (or was)....but that's a different story again 
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v-un-v
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:18 am Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | | "analougue warmth" |
Ahh! But I DIDN'T say "analogue warmth" did I? I said warmth!
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frijitz
Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 1734
Location: NM USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:15 am Post subject:
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| Funky40 wrote: | As i understand Frijitz' explanations it isn't really successful to do.
Isn't it ?
Is there really no chance to get a VCO good enough for FM synthesis ?
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I wasn't saying you can't do successful FM -- the ZO demos as well as the ones Rene has up show that you can. And I believe that it definitely makes sense to proceed with a diy project, especially if it turns out that the ZO is as simple as the old EN design.
But I still think that there will be limits on what you can do with analog as compared to digital. Not really sure what those limits are, but I kinda doubt anyone would want to do a four operator instrument in analog.
So does it make sense to go ahead with a project to look at using a higher performance core? Dunno. Meebee. |
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Scott Stites
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:24 am Post subject:
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| Quote: | | So does it make sense to go ahead with a project to look at using a higher performance core? Dunno. Meebee. |
Ian, if you're behind the wheel, hell yeah!
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TheAncientOne
Joined: Dec 26, 2006
Posts: 144
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:14 am Post subject:
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When I was a school kid first dipping my toes into the world of electronic music, the first thing I actually made was a ring modulator. I used an old Valve (Tube) audio range BFO for one input, this, (I think it may have been Airmech or Marconi), covered the who audio range in one sweep of the dial. If I set the "Zero" control deliberately high, I could get what is now known as a through zero - it made for some good effects with the ring mod, as I recall.
Is this perhaps another approach? An RF VCO sweeping against a fixed oscillator? Quite like a Theremin. There would undoubtedly be stability issues, but I wonder just how bad they would be. An advantage is getting a native sine wave, from which most of the others can be shaped.
On the 'warmth' subject - save your semtex for one of the bigger targets, like the RIAA perhaps, I think it ought to be pelted to death with expired ECC83's (Sorry! 12AX7's), most have which have died in pursuit of it. Adding a bit of filtered noise to a control signal helps in some cases, I find - I've even done that virtually in CSound
Mike
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frijitz
Joined: May 04, 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:16 am Post subject:
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| TheProf wrote: | | Is this perhaps another approach? An RF VCO sweeping against a fixed oscillator? Quite like a Theremin. There would undoubtedly be stability issues, but I wonder just how bad they would be. An advantage is getting a native sine wave, from which most of the others can be shaped. Mike |
Yes, this is the approach of Jan Hall's EN design. It uses two 8038 VCOs, one fixed at 20 kHz and the other variable 10-30 kHz, and a BB4094 multiplier. No information on stability, etc., that I have seen.
Ian |
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v-un-v
Janitor
Joined: May 16, 2005
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Location: Birmingham, England, UK
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:31 am Post subject:
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Hey Mike!  to electro-music.com!
Where in the UK are you from? (If you don't mind me asking?)
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IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
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TheAncientOne
Joined: Dec 26, 2006
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Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:07 am Post subject:
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| v-un-v wrote: |
Where in the UK are you from? (If you don't mind me asking?) |
Bolton, Near Manchester.
Thanks for the welcome. I'm a kind of synth returnee. I built analogs for frinds through the late 70's and 80's, did a bit of volunteer assembly for IRCAM, and finally faded out in the late eighties with the onslaught of pre-built and digitals.
Kept my hand in by fixing musical gear for friends and some customers, (I'm an electronics engineer, specializing in industrial control systems). Following a chance discovery of the growing synth DIY fraternity on line, I decided to fulfill a long term dream and build some kit for myself. Started at Christmas, and have now got bits and boards everywhere. I'm quite eclectic, started with some of Thorsten Klose's excellent MIDIbox stuff, and the first thing I've had running in the analog area is a Thomas Henry SN Voice - I found the board project on here too.
I've been more of a poster on MIDIbox, but as I get back into analog wrangling, I hope to contibute a little here too. I've got a great interest in the Klee sequencer, as an antidote to the two digitals I'm working on. Just casing up a Ray Wilson Soundlab and his 16 step sequencer. Thats me.
Thanks again for the welcome
Mike
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TheAncientOne
Joined: Dec 26, 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:12 am Post subject:
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| frijitz wrote: | | TheProf wrote: | | Is this perhaps another approach? An RF VCO sweeping against a fixed oscillator? Quite like a Theremin. There would undoubtedly be stability issues, but I wonder just how bad they would be. An advantage is getting a native sine wave, from which most of the others can be shaped. Mike |
Yes, this is the approach of Jan Hall's EN design. It uses two 8038 VCOs, one fixed at 20 kHz and the other variable 10-30 kHz, and a BB4094 multiplier. No information on stability, etc., that I have seen.
Ian |
I was thinking myself of stealing some of the communications receiver technology, so as to use a varicap tune RF oscillator, and perhaps phase lock that to the voltage input, to keep it stable. I was thinking of high KHz or low MHz oscillators. I might have a go at the relatively low frequency approach. The mechanical construction of an RF design is a bit critical, though I know one or two good pro-am RF designers, so I can ask!
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Last edited by TheAncientOne on Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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frijitz
Joined: May 04, 2007
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Location: NM USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:29 pm Post subject:
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| TheProf wrote: | | Thanks for the welcome. I'm a kind of synth returnee. I built analogs for frinds through the late 70's and 80's, did a bit of volunteer assembly for IRCAM, and finally faded out in the late eighties with the onslaught of pre-built and digitals. |
Yep, basically the same story here. (Onslaught -- that's a good word for it.) There are lots of us old re-treads around. I've met a few here and also on the s-diy mailing list. Good to know another one!
Ian |
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ian-s
Joined: Apr 01, 2004
Posts: 2672
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:40 pm Post subject:
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| Quote: | | >But I still think that there will be limits on what you can do with analog as >compared to digital. Not really sure what those limits are, but I kinda doubt >anyone would want to do a four operator instrument in analog. |
You can get a huge amount of usable FM tones just with a single TZO and a couple of regular sine oscillators mixed as the modulator. I find the main deference between series/parallel modulators is how quickly the tone 'blows up' with increased modulation.
I have no experience with analog TZ FM, but I imagine the only minor problems would be with carrier:modulator tracking.
If you let a pair free run, you will get a slow beating in the tone (nice sometimes but not desirable in every case). Syncing them would solve the beating but might result in small discontinuities. Even if very small, imperfections in the modulator wave can result in prominent sidebands.
It would be nice to hear FM tones without any aliasing noise though. |
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Nosferatu
Joined: Jul 27, 2007
Posts: 234
Location: Planet Rock.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:16 am Post subject:
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So this interesting project just died?  |
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Randaleem
Joined: May 17, 2007
Posts: 456
Location: Northern CA, USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject:
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| Nosferatu wrote: | | So this interesting project just died? |
Hi Nosferatu,
No, At least not the EN-based TZVCO PCB that I've been working on. You can expect it to be offered and available in September.
EDIT: Andrew F built the EN TZVCO circuit as published and is pleased with it. His positive results are what led to the EN design being pursued for further pcb development.
Randal
Last edited by Randaleem on Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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frijitz
Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 1734
Location: NM USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject:
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| Nosferatu wrote: | | So this interesting project just died? |
I still have it on my list of projects. I'm concerned about the EN design, because there is a conflict if the reversal threshold is reached at the same time that the core is already in the process of reversing. I need to figure out if this is a real problem in practice, or just a paper one. |
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vtl5c3
Joined: Sep 08, 2006
Posts: 425
Location: PDX
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:49 pm Post subject:
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Heh, somehow I managed to miss this thread until now. I built a pair of the EN 129 Through Zero VCOs back in 96. They're pretty interesting, but I have a hard time putting my finger on what sets them apart from non-TZ oscillators. I'll try doing some experiments and recording them for your perusal.
I also built a pair of the EN Option 4 through Zero VCOs that were in the preferred builder's guide. The circuit is a weird beast. I'm not sure I'd bill it as a "musical" vco, but if you're into the bizarre, this one is definitely worth investigating.
R. |
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frijitz
Joined: May 04, 2007
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:07 pm Post subject:
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| vtl5c3 wrote: | | I also built a pair of the EN Option 4 through Zero VCOs that were in the preferred builder's guide. The circuit is a weird beast. I'm not sure I'd bill it as a "musical" vco, but if you're into the bizarre, this one is definitely worth investigating. |
Romeo -- I only have an early version of the PBG. Could you give me the reference to the original EN article, if it is handy? Thanks
Ian |
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guitarfool
Joined: Feb 26, 2007
Posts: 161
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:23 pm Post subject:
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| frijitz wrote: | I only have an early version of the PBG. Could you give me the reference to the original EN article, if it is handy? Thanks
Ian |
It was in EN #129. Bernie posted the original article here http://electronotes.netfirms.com/free.html at the bottom. |
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vtl5c3
Joined: Sep 08, 2006
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:48 pm Post subject:
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Hi Ian,
Looks like that was EN # 75.
R. |
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Photon
Joined: Mar 22, 2005
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Location: Boston
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:24 pm Post subject:
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the Hall "option 4" thu-zero VCO in the PBG appears to be from EN#65.
-P. |
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vtl5c3
Joined: Sep 08, 2006
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:19 pm Post subject:
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Hey Photon,
I just checked. The TZ VCO in EN 65 is by Jan Hall, but it's not the Option 4. That one uses two 8038s for the oscillators. Looks pretty unusual. The option 4 design is in EN 75, on page 19.
R. |
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Photon
Joined: Mar 22, 2005
Posts: 363
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:26 am Post subject:
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Thanks for checking. Sorry to misinform.
<edit>
at the risk of risk further confusion...
The thru zero design listed as VCO option 4 in my copy of the PBG IS the 8038 design from EN65, but plainly not the one you're referring to. Interesting...
-P |
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Nosferatu
Joined: Jul 27, 2007
Posts: 234
Location: Planet Rock.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:02 pm Post subject:
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del
Last edited by Nosferatu on Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:32 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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