Syncing sequencers to live musicians.

ian-s

Tap tempo? Not wanting to downplay the usefulness of this feature but, in relation to syncing sequencers to live music, has anyone actually done this?

The reason I ask is that when I was involved in live music (I was tech for a few bands in the 80’s) tap tempo was not an option (things may have changed since then).
Setting tempo for a delay effect maybe, because even moderate errors are not that noticeable.
But sequencers with actual notes and rhythmic structure? Even miniscule variations will sound like crap very quickly. In my experience, you need a rhythm section that is willing to try and make it work, and use a click track. With the right people it can work very well. We did have one drummer (for a short time) who if he lost track of the tempo just played very loudly in an attempt to drown out the sequenced part.
Another band I worked with solved the problem by not using sequencers and playing everything manually, this worked well, but limited the choice of material a little.

elektro80 · Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 12:45 pm Post subject:

I have tried tap tempo.. impossible.. it simply does not work at all.
A click track.. and a drum track.. on the moitors or headphones.. combined with the leds that go "flash" for every 16th.. I love the running leds on the TR 707. back then you could get custom jobs done on the TR 707 so a whole series could sync.. and all the leds would be in sync too. You could also buy kits for led rows for use as visual sync. That helps a lot.

mosc · Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 1:43 pm Post subject:

I assume you mean "some kind of drum machine" when you say sequencer.

I have strong opinions about this. If you are going to run a sequencer during a performance, then don't use a drummer, unless they are willing to play a secondary role as a accenter or filler, which is pretty much what all the other musicians are doing anyhow.

If you have a drummer, don't use a sequencer.

A good drummer should be given the space to be creative.

I've seen lots of bands where sequencers and drummers are used and I think it is an insult to the drummer, and to the audience.

Drum machines and sequencers are the bane of electronic music. Too much of the time someone just turns one on, thump thump thmp, and everyone starts wankeling on top. Boring...

We use sequencers in Xeroid Entity, but we have a rule - more like the Prime Directive. If you (one of the musicians) start up a sequence, then you play the sequence with your full attention - you never turn it on and play something else. A sequence is a very dominant part that must get at least as much attention as any other part. A sequencer can not listen - the main point of this topic I think - so it must be played by a musician that can.

egw · Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 1:45 pm Post subject:

I have something called a Midi Humanizer that takes a drum trigger as input and generates a midi clock. One of these days I'll dig it out of storage and see how well it works.

mosc · Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:01 pm Post subject:

jksuperstar · Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:56 pm Post subject:

I played in a band that combined live drums (me) and a few sequencers. We pulled it off live pretty well..the sequencers becoming the click-track so to speak. I had a live guitarist, vocalist & keys to work with, so everything wasn't sequenced, and as MOSC suggested, our sequencers were guided by hands. But recording in the studio, I played an electronic drumset, so we'd record MIDI, quantize just enough to tighten things up (and account for audio soundcard/midi delays), then record the audio. here's an old clip...gotta scroll into it, it's got a 1:00 intro

sooner.mp3

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Klearmusic - Sooner

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sooner.mp3

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elektro80 · Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 4:09 pm Post subject:

hey this one is great. A weird mix of DM ( far better than most of the DM ) stuff.. and various german and norwegian versions of late Ashra rockish sequencer stuff.

I don´t really have any files available right now of old live material using drums and sequencers. The only thing I have is in the bachus thread about.. hmm.. You ever get that feeling or osmething.. wich is not a live recording but a jam. Anyway.. I have written and performed music with sequencers and live drums. It can be done. It works best when everything is 200% arranged.

BTW: Howard.. did you see that CAN documentary..? Irmin Schimdt calls Jaki Liebezeit a drummachine with no humanize.

mosc · Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:26 pm Post subject:

Yes, I like this piece. Nice one...

I'm sure drums are sequencers can be great, but I still have strong opinions.

I haven't seen that documentary yet, unfortunately.

I guess everyone saw this by now... http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-3290.html

paul e. · Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:30 pm Post subject:

we use sequencerd, digital audio synced to a click track which our drummer receives in his in-ear monitors

works perfectly...our drummer insists on playing to a click

this way he can follow lock-step with the sequence..

and it also sounds very organic..loose guitars, vocals and a super-tight rythm section [we have no bass player, just synth]

so it works for us very well

i think there is music that is 'sequenced' by nature..here, we need tight synced timing

other music is meant to be looser and less strict and 'going by feel 'is important

both methods pr0duce can good music

paul e. · Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:35 pm Post subject:

for those interested

here is a live recording we did recently...examples of synced sequences and human players..

caution* -- this is 'rock plus electronics'

http://www.suddentheband.com/mp3/sudden-live-hs-moreorless.mp3

or

http://www.suddentheband.com/mp3/sudden-live-hs-nevernever.mp3

jksuperstar · Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:16 pm Post subject:

This seems to be a hot topic (two discussions, a wishlist, and a Gear posting!).

I remember doing this on the NMclassic to do a tap tempo. You can do this by building a PLL. But I think it's a little easier on the G2, since LFO's are controlled by blue signals instead of grey.

In theory, you could run a sawtooth LFO (at a steady rate), sync'd by a button or keypress (or footswitch). Capture with S&H (triggered by the same keypress). Set the LFO rate appropriately, and the captured blue signal would be the rate that you run other LFO's at. It might need to be additionally scaled, but it should work. Knowledge of how blue signals map to clock frequencies would be helpful (anyone have this info?)

Promise I'll give it ashot when mine comes in (I've got a MoFX that I'd like to emulate anyway..one less piece of gear to haul around!).

paul e. · Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:23 pm Post subject:

jksuperstar · Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:44 pm Post subject:

I suppose I could remix my own tune...if I wasn't so busy trying to write some new ones! Besides, old is 4 years to me:)

paul e. · Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:46 pm Post subject:

yup, know that feeling

Fozzie · Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:35 am Post subject:

I just posted my best attempt at this. Works reasonably well, I think. Not only tempo, but also delay and lfo settings can be tapped.

http://electro-music.com/forum/post-19723.html#19723

But don't get me wrong, I'd still like to see a tap tempo module, because the resolution in this way is not that good.

About drummers & sequencers: I like the opportunity to have both, or start a sequencer in the same tempo as the last few beats of a drummer, and have them after each other, not per se at the same time.