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TekniK
Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 1059
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 Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:43 pm Post subject:
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Was sagen sie?  |
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zthee
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:15 am Post subject:
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| TekniK wrote: | | Was sagen sie? |
Basically I apologize for how crappy it still sounds, but I'm happy that the basic vocoding works from the start, so I can now do a little debugging and optimizing. 
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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axxim
Joined: Aug 19, 2010
Posts: 3
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:59 pm Post subject:
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No smoke = good
Sound = excellent!
Trimmpot adjusting = work 
Just a question about the caps: Did you simulated the filters with inferior (greater) tolerances? What was/would be the overall effect? Bandwidth spread vs. peak loss?
The questions are because my idea is to design a vocoder with its own oscillators for the carrier with the maximum SMD components as possible. I am also thinking of an hybrid solution, with a digital analysis section (more flexibility) and an analog carrier section (more "analogity")
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KEYKEYEYEKIT
Joined: Sep 08, 2009
Posts: 24
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:50 pm Post subject:
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| Amazing. |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:53 pm Post subject:
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Vocoder and Frequency Shifter (an alternative to cross patching?)
I found this old sound clip on my PC today. It's from a previous vocoder project (14 channels). The Speech signal is frequency shifted with the FS-1, and then used for vocoding.
http://www.jhaible.de/vocoder/fs1_and_vocoder.mp3
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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/mr
Joined: Aug 05, 2007
Posts: 223
Location: Elektron City, Sweden
Audio files: 1
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:50 pm Post subject:
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| jhaible wrote: | | Vocoder and Frequency Shifter (an alternative to cross patching?) |
Pitch shift rather than frequency shift would probably be the adequate alternative...
and perhaps also the cheapest way. Interesting demo anyway! |
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janvanvolt
Joined: Nov 24, 2005
Posts: 285
Location: Mainz, Germany
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:22 pm Post subject:
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| janvanvolt wrote: | | any news JH ? |
Not much time to work on the vocoder.
Yesterday I have shipped quite a number of PCBs from older projects, plus my hand-built SOST Flanger with that blue front panel.
Today I was in Munich from early morning till right now, on an Alpha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_course) training course.
But the vocoder just needs a bit more tweaking - you can expect this project to happen, to 99%.
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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3vcos
Joined: Oct 26, 2006
Posts: 107
Location: California
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| Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:16 pm Post subject:
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Hate to be a pest but I'm real excited about this project. Any news JH?
Thanks!
| jhaible wrote: | | janvanvolt wrote: | | any news JH ? |
Not much time to work on the vocoder.
Yesterday I have shipped quite a number of PCBs from older projects, plus my hand-built SOST Flanger with that blue front panel.
Today I was in Munich from early morning till right now, on an Alpha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_course) training course.
But the vocoder just needs a bit more tweaking - you can expect this project to happen, to 99%.
JH. |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:18 am Post subject:
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| 3vcos wrote: | Hate to be a pest but I'm real excited about this project. Any news JH?
Thanks!
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Works, needs minor debugging, will come as a PCB project.
I won't hurry it, but take care that it will really be right.
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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sonicwarrior
Joined: Dec 22, 2005
Posts: 266
Location: Cologne, Germany
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:09 am Post subject:
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Florian Anwander wrote something interesting in a sequencer.de thread about the Doepfer Vocoder:
| florian_anwander wrote: | 1.) Das Wichtigste am Arbeiten mit dem Vocoder ist die Aufbereitung des Modulatorsignals. Das Modulatorsignal MUSS stark variabel im Obertongehalt sein, und es MUSS MÖGLICHST WENIG variabel im Pegel sein. Pegelmäßig dynamische Modulatorsignale sind ein Garant für unprofessionell dünn klingende Vocodersounds. Nach meiner Meinung gehört das Modulatorsignal bis "unter die Zimmerdecke" komprimiert (speziell bei Sprache als Modulator).
Die Bedeutung des Carriersignals halte ich für deulich überschätzt (sorry, Bernie). Ok, ein Sinus als Carrier bringt nix, aber die meisten Leute können zwar die Bedeutung der Eigenschaften des Carriers für das Ergebnis gefühlsmäßig einschätzen, aber nur die wenigsten können sich vorstellen, was ein gut komprimiertes und EQtes Modulatorsignal bringt.
2.) Das A129-System ist grundsaetzlich schon sehr fein. Das A129 kann aber erst dann die Möglichkeiten seiner Modularität ausspielen, wenn man die Analyse-Spannungen noch anderweitig verwurstet. Wenn man dazu keine Möglichkeit hat, dann ist ein einfacher digitaler Vocoder besser. zB fürs gleiche Geld kriegt man einen MicroModular, mit dem man fast die gleichen Sachen (und sehr sehr viel anderes mehr) machen kann.
Ich hab bisher vier analoge Vocoder besessen, und bin nun definitiv auf digitale Geräte umgeschwenkt. Grundsätzlich sind die meisten analogen Vocoder der Mittelklasse erstmal wegen der verwendeten Bauteile ziemliche Rauschgeneratoren, wenn die Signalpegel nicht ganz optimal sind (und zu der besagten Mittelklasse gehört einfach auch das Doepfer A129). Da haben die digitalen Pendants einfach deutlich die Nase vorn. Ich hab mal einen durchaus renomierten Vocodersammler "vorgeführt", indem er einen Alesis Metavox mit einem Behringerchorus dahinter für einen Roland SVC350 gehalten hat (also ca 120 Euro versus ca 650 Euro Gebrauchtmarktpreis).
Ich hatte selber SVC350, VP330, MAM VF11, Doepfer A129 und ich kenne den Sennheiser VSM201 ganz gut. Der Sennheiser ist der einzige, den ich für besser als einen Nordmodular-Vocoder halte. |
Point 1 is the important stuff so I'll try to translate it:
The most important part for a work with a Vocoder is the proper preparation of the modulator signal. It has to be highly variable in the overtone concentration and lowly variable in the level. Highly dynamic signals are a guarantor for unprofessionally thin sounding Vocoder tones. IMO the modulator should maximally compressed, especially when using vocals.
I consider the importance of the Carrier signal highly overrated. Ok, a sine wave as Carrier is of no use but most people are able to estimate the importance of the properties of it emotionally, while few can figure out what a properly compressed and EQed Modulator signal is able to do.
I doubt it makes sense to include a compressor and EQ PCB because there are enough DIY projects for them but I think a note would be appreciated. |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:12 am Post subject:
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On the Living Vocoder, there is a simple opto-electronic compressor / limiter on board. And a one-knob tone control to adjust th ebalance between treble and bass. For detailed control, the channel attenuators (if implemented) serve as an additional 20-band EQ.
And a line-level insert path (send / return) for any compressor or outboard EQ you like.
That's for the Modulator.
The carrier has a compander system. As in Florians's quote, it might not be as important as in the modulator path. But it helps to run a wide range of levels into the vocoder without the need of much adjustment to this level.
And as there is companding, rather than just compression, the dynamic range isn't artificially reduced.
DIYers will find it easy to disable that compander, if not needed.
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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sonicwarrior
Joined: Dec 22, 2005
Posts: 266
Location: Cologne, Germany
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:04 am Post subject:
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Sounds very good.  |
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Funky40
Joined: Sep 24, 2005
Posts: 875
Location: Swiss
Audio files: 1
G2 patch files: 5
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:18 pm Post subject:
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| jhaible wrote: |
I won't hurry it, but take care that it will really be right.
JH. |
good thing.
i need to plan finances.
Do you have any Idea in which timeframe we can expect the living vocoder Jürgen ? |
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:47 pm Post subject:
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| Funky40 wrote: | | jhaible wrote: |
I won't hurry it, but take care that it will really be right.
JH. |
good thing.
i need to plan finances.
Do you have any Idea in which timeframe we can expect the living vocoder Jürgen ? |
I don't know. It sits here, 99% finished, and will definitely come as a PCB project. Certainly not this year (as I intended), but very likely in the first half of next year.
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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janvanvolt
Joined: Nov 24, 2005
Posts: 285
Location: Mainz, Germany
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TheAncientOne
Joined: Dec 26, 2006
Posts: 144
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:54 pm Post subject:
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| janvanvolt wrote: | Slowly i have doubts that this thing will ever become to life  |
As Jurgen might put in a sig line: "Oh ye of little faith..."
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Mike |
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zthee
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:23 am Post subject:
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I was thinking of this this weekend.
Just wanted to chime in and say that when it happens I'm still on board!
Can't wait! 
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Funky40
Joined: Sep 24, 2005
Posts: 875
Location: Swiss
Audio files: 1
G2 patch files: 5
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:02 pm Post subject:
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Jürgen, when it's coming, just let us know a bit ahead please,
so we can save the funds ( and i have to get back into soldering first  )
thanks |
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JoeMorris
Joined: Apr 26, 2009
Posts: 161
Location: Brighton
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:27 pm Post subject:
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| will we ever see another JH project again? |
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TekniK
Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 1059
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:46 am Post subject:
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| Juergen is moving houses atm,he will be back when he is settled properly |
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zthee
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:24 am Post subject:
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I'm excited to see if his new neighbors have a big fake palm tree as well!
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jhaible
Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:44 am Post subject:
Status of the Vocoder project |
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Status of the Vocoder project
All right, I've finished moving houses and slowly get back to thinking about electronic projects. The soldering iron isn't unpacked yet, and it will probably take some more time before I will pick it up again.
And yes, about the Vocoder. I have a really wonderful Vocoder now that is quite close to the big EMS 5000, plus some features from the Sennheiser and some of my own thrown in.
And it's finished to about 98% or 99%, and these last 1% or 2% are responsible for that huge delay of progress.
And honestly, I fear to complete it and offer it as a product, because
1.) It will never be a commercial success (i.e. it will never bring in the money for all the time I've invested in it), and
2.) I'm afraid of what can go wrong with such a huge project and what the customer reactions might be.
I think (1) is clear. So let me explain (2) a bit more.
You know that I can't give much support for debugging, hints on where to look in the schemos I've already published, and so on, for my previous projects. Which all are rather small in size.
Recently, I had a "customer" who outright denied to even look at the forum when I pointed him there for answers which he insisted to have answered from me personally. I pulled the emergency brake and sent him a refund for the PCB he boaugt, just to put an end to it.
I know that most of you are not like this, and that the community of this forum works very well to help one another and free me from most support work. I can only thank you for that!
But for a project the size of the vocoder??
I know what can go wrong with 1892 components, so I see a lot of trouble coming. For a project that will probably never be a commercial success.
That's, frankly spoken, the reason why I hesitate to pull it out of teh boxes and finish these final 1% or 2% of the project ...
I have an idea how to deal with this, though. But before I tell you more, please let me know your thoughts on this.
JH.
_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f) |
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zthee
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 414
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:23 am Post subject:
Re: Status of the Vocoder project |
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| jhaible wrote: | | Recently, I had a "customer" who outright denied to even look at the forum when I pointed him there for answers which he insisted to have answered from me personally. I pulled the emergency brake and sent him a refund for the PCB he boaugt, just to put an end to it. |
That is horrible!
| jhaible wrote: | | I have an idea how to deal with this, though. But before I tell you more, please let me know your thoughts on this. |
Even if this project came with null-zero-zip support I'd be in for it anyway. And the board can be €500 - no problem.
But please, take your time! If you have alternatives, please explore them. And hopefully this will happen.
Thank you Jürgen for doing this!
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