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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
3D sound FX help needed
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steampump



Joined: Oct 22, 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:21 am    Post subject: 3D sound FX help needed Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I need some info to create a 3D panning system .
1 controller left right (X)
1 controller front back (Z)
1 controller for the distance
maybe 1 controller for up and down (Y)

I need some easy info to fake a 3D sourounding. I do not need psycho accoustic theories with mathematic formulas, just the range of delays and what kinds of filter to use to modify the 3D position in a stereo environement.

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mosc
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There are very few true 3D sound systems in use today. I assume when you use the term 3D you mean surround, or sound with a 360 degree field. If so, are you looking at 4 channels out of the G2. Are you looking for a system to convert a stereo file into a 4 channel sound?
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steampump



Joined: Oct 22, 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Mosc
No to your question . I just want to fake a binaural system, because many people are listning music with headphones. Most people have no time to sit between 4 or more speaker to listen music, they are all doing other thing while hearing music . Dolby surround and other 3D sound is good for Video but not for music.

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Afro88



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't know why it works the way it does, but have a look at the rotationdelay patch in fx. Somehow, using only phase, it sounds like the delay moves around your head (in front then behind). This might give you some ideas on what phase relationships work best to position audio behind you.

Another thing I've heard is to put a 6db lowpass filter on the audio to shave off some of the top end. Our ears naturally point outwards and forward. Anything coming from behind is slightly filtered.
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zynthetix



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i think i understand what you are aiming for, but it is impossible to get true 3-D with headphones (there is only left and right). binaural recordings have some pretty realistic effects though, like a bee buzzing around your head. I think concise panning (illusion of degrees around the human head) and volume envelopes (illusion distance from the human head) might do the trick.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Afrokid wrote:
I don't know why it works the way it does, but have a look at the rotationdelay patch in fx.


You mean here: http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-4159.html

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Sander_k



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If i were to make a 3D 'placement-kind-of-patch'

- i'd use the delay to simulate left-right or right-left space wideness
- i'd use the comb filter to simulate the up and down. The already existing 3D-sound programs also use these technique (as your ear does too btw)*
- i'd use the reverb to simulate close and far
- i'd use the panning for the general left/right spacing.

that's about all there is right?

The lowpass-filter can come in handy to in combination with the comb filter to simulate under the floor or above the ceiling effects.

*your ears are used to recognize/localize things in a space because you got used to the different phase coherences from the day you were able to hear, in relation to what you see at the moment you hear it. The phase relation your ear 'knows' can be retreived by using the comb-filter. The difficulty is that it differs from person to person how realistic it will sound because we developped our ears in different/unique ways.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

zynthetix wrote:
i think i understand what you are aiming for, but it is impossible to get true 3-D with headphones (there is only left and right).


I suppose that would realy depend on what you call "true", but remember your ears are a one way stereo system too....

Currently I think it´s our best option because Wave Field Synthesis has a few problems left that make moving sound sources either increadibly cpu intensive (way more intensive then realtime on current -non cluster- systems¹) or make for a cross between aliassing and flanging as impulse responces are cross-faded. I´m not discussing Dolby beyond saying it´s nice for kids.

What mr. Pump needs is a program to interpert data from those head-emulating microphones. There´s a batch from MIT (I believe) that´s open and free and implemented in a C-sound opcode but I believe it´s limited to distances of 1.5 meters away from the head (you do get a relatively full sphere at that distance and it eats fairly straightforward parameters). There may be some stray IRCAM ones too, I forget.

This will also be limited to a finite resolution of directions but I seem to remember that in this case crossfading leads to less problems or perhaps somebody cooked up something more intelligent, then didn´t tell me (this happens disturbingly often, there should realy be laws against it)

Then some sort of filtering will be in order to do distance, probably with some sort of added doppler for moving soundsources.

I´m not sure the G2 is the right tool for the job since the G2 lacks filters of continuously modulatable slope and has no filters at all less steep then 6db/octave (at least no ready made ones) which is realy what you need to emulate the result of air on sound. You can sugest "phase linear pinking filter", then they´ll go "memory" and you´ll be back where you were so don´t bother².

I could look up the exact details on that opcode if you need them, I did quite a bit of research on this a while ago due to work on a soundtrack for a movie that featured splitschreens and so needed lots of spatialisation. That project got shot down, but I still did the research so now I need to bother you guys with trivia to get my time´s worth. In synopis I can say "here be dragons, get something off the shelf and don´t implement it yourself unless you have a decade to waste"
:¬p

¹fortunately the system is idealy suited for distributed computing, it´s just that nobody is giving the right people apropriately sized clusters.
²I´m realy starting to think I might be drinking too much cafeïne.

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...too much coffee????? never !

too much coffee too much coffee too much coffee too much coffee

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jksuperstar



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
i think i understand what you are aiming for, but it is impossible to get true 3-D with headphones


I'd have to agree with Kassen that it is largely possible. Ultimately, your ears do nearly all the hearing. There are subtle vibrations that get picked up by your skull, but for audio trickery, those can be ignored or simulated with various filters & phase adjustments.

I think panning, level control, and filtering go a long way, but the ears are heavily dependent on phase for localization. It's the primary reason why we have such difficulty localizing underwater sounds - water has such different wave characteristics that waves entire our ears in a much more efficient, and more phase coherent, manner. All the information in a sound wave that we depend on is lost underwater.
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steampump



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thank Sander ,
that is the kind of aswer i'm searching. Because i have found description from some universities , the math are to high for what i want to do. I don't want to enter in psychoacoustic math. That also why i speak about faking and not simulating 3D sound. But what i still miss is the range for delay and filters , reverb for distance of maximum of 1 to 50m.

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ian-s



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The speed of sound is about 340M per second (vary a little for altitude & humidity) 1000 ms in a second so 50ms represent about 17 Meters, 5ms 1.7 etc. When close up, LP filter the channel furthest from the source to simulate the dampening caused by your own head.
I remember looking at my wife (before we married) who was sitting opposite me in a crowded bar. There were so many people talking very loudly that you could not hear any single conversation. I noticed that her ears moved, very slightly, moving in different directions. This is involuntary and helps focus sound due to the complex filtering of the ear. This filtering is different for every human ear, that is why the CSound opcode uses averaged data from testing 100’s of individuals. Sometimes you can stumble across settings that localize a sound very well, but this localization may be specific to yourself. As far as I know, there is no simple solution or set of formulas. It’s fun to play with though.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That's why I like to use different phase shifters for the left and right in order to create fake stereo. You never know what it's going to sound like - it almost always sounds good - - it sounds different depending on where you are in releation to the speakers - and it sounds different to every person.
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steampump



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just a sample patch with sanders advice.
Just assign the morph to slider or somethinh else.
I never thought using delay between left right . A god surprise it give really a spacy effect.
I tried to use only lp filter to rienforce far sound . Don't know wath is better befor or after reverb ? Up and down ? Don't know if it is possible .
I have just erase the second patch it was an error . Have had problems yesterday with the upload.


stp_xyzfx1.pch2
 Description:
3D sound test

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 Filename:  stp_xyzfx1.pch2
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Sander_k



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If you really want to get deeper into 3d-sound i can suggest reading through the followoing page http://www.kom.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de/acmmm99/ep/kimkihong/

I'm trying to figure out that low and high thing, i'll post a patch here soon Smile
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Sander_k



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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here's a great example for anyone involved in 3d audio Smile

http://www.wavearts.com/Panorama.html
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King Rat



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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm more interested in G2ian's wife's ability to move her ears...!
Was this bar like the one in Star Wars?
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mosc
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

One of the world autorhities on 3D sound is Robin Miller, a member of this forum. He will be speaking at electro-music 2005. His web site which has very interesting information about 3D sound is http://filmaker.com

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