Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8932 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1
Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:17 pm Post subject:
My fave track from Classics!
_________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Joined: Jun 07, 2009 Posts: 124 Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:01 pm Post subject:
v-un-v wrote:
thundarr wrote:
Especially when you consider what the research funding is going to be used for.
What? Vacuum cleaners?? (falling under the banner of engineering)
What other research do you consider is bad? Pharmaceuticals? GM? Nuclear energy? These are some of the few things the British are really good at, but have a really bad image. We are frankly FUCKED without investment in these technologies.
Glance at the pie chart at the bottom of page 5
I was just saying I'd rather have reduced R&D funding and liberal politics than more R&D funding with massive support for right-wing loonies.
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8932 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:48 pm Post subject:
thundarr wrote:
v-un-v wrote:
thundarr wrote:
Especially when you consider what the research funding is going to be used for.
What? Vacuum cleaners?? (falling under the banner of engineering)
What other research do you consider is bad? Pharmaceuticals? GM? Nuclear energy? These are some of the few things the British are really good at, but have a really bad image. We are frankly FUCKED without investment in these technologies.
Glance at the pie chart at the bottom of page 5
Well, yes, that (unfortunately) actually makes a lot of sense, because there is big money in defence, and this shows because governments always go to war when they know that there is a whiff of recession in the air. A big chunk of R&D in Britain falls under the banner of defence, because that is where the money is.
thundarr wrote:
I was just saying I'd rather have reduced R&D funding and liberal politics than more R&D funding with massive support for right-wing loonies.
Really? Where is the difference? The anti nazi league with their vile liberal antics are no different from Nick Griffin. The BNP were democratically elected, therefore they do, whether you like it or not, have a right to free speech. Where the AFL are really fucking up here, is that they are stopping the BNP from having an opinion, by silencing the BNP when they speak. Don't you think this bares more than a striking similarity to exactly what the BNP would wish on us?? ie to STOP us from speaking?? Hmm.....
I'd much prefer to have the latter, because the former (liberalism) says that we can't argue with right wing scum, which is exactly what nazis want to do to us (as argued previously). I want to argue in open debate with far right scum to show up how vile they are, not to be told be equally nazi liberal scum that I can't, that I can't have an opinion.
As for R&D, we British NEED R&D so desperately! We NEED R&D to help improve our hospitals so we can make people BETTER. We need r&d with new agricultural technologies so we can feed people, not just our people, but people poorer undeveloped countries. We need to house people, we need to develop new medicines, new forms of transport, better more efficient engines, strategies to live with climate change, NOT to prevent climate change (which is impossible and is frankly a step backward in time to much harsher, more difficult ways).
Britain's current GDP is the lowest it has been since the turn of the 20th century (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=192). We are billions of pounds in debt (http://www.independent.co.uk/money/loans-credit/for-the-first-time-britons-personal-debt-exceeds-britains-gdp-462825.html). We are FUCKED without big investment in R&D, and most of that funding will have to come from some things that we don't necessarily like, whether we like it or not. _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Joined: Jan 18, 2005 Posts: 4145 Location: Sweden
Audio files: 371
G2 patch files: 100
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:12 pm Post subject:
I once heard someone say that the UK suffers from having too many people with degrees in the humanities, taking competence away from the engineering and natural science sector.
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8932 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:40 pm Post subject:
I think that's fairly true, although it is really important that people, including engineers, also understand what happened during the period of The Enlightenment.
And of course the enlightenment wasn't just confined to Britain. _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Joined: Jun 07, 2009 Posts: 124 Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:18 am Post subject:
v-un-v wrote:
Really? Where is the difference? The anti nazi league with their vile liberal antics are no different from Nick Griffin.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this statement What are these vile liberal antics? Opposing fascism? Throwing eggs at Mr Griffin?
Regardless of their antics, there is a middle ground here... There is no need to bring up minority far-left groups when our political system is fortunately very mid-field (relatively).
Quote:
The BNP were democratically elected, therefore they do, whether you like it or not, have a right to free speech.
Of course they do... The HUGE difference here is that the BNP are a joke party supported by a tiny minority. They do not have entire news networks backing them, and huge public support.
I wouldn't trade our relatively liberal (note, this actually means central, not far-left) position for one with huge far-right support, even if it meant we could build some better vacuum cleaners.
Joined: Aug 28, 2006 Posts: 858 Location: Guangzhou, China
Audio files: 4
Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:29 pm Post subject:
v-un-v wrote:
I want to argue in open debate with far right scum to show up how vile they are, not to be told by equally nazi liberal scum that I can't, that I can't have an opinion.
It happens that Ovation TV showed today at lunchtime the 1937 episode of Howard Goodall's "Great Years" series. The overarching theme was totalitarian repression: Shostakovich's troubles at the hands of the Stalinites, and Germany's decimation of its extraordinary musical culture under the Nazis. (That's not to mention the unthinkable human cost under both regimes -- but it's a show about music history and naturally it focuses attention there.)
The association of "Nazi" with "liberal" has always bothered me, as it's usually a conservative propaganda play to demonize liberalism, somewhat less than historically accurate. But seeing again the images of the death camps, old photos of the prison orchestras forced to play for the amusement of the guards knowing that just outside, their fellow prisoners were being marched into the gas chambers, reminds me of something that really should be obvious.
Today's liberal parties are in no way, shape or form a repeat of Nazism.
Why the f*** should I even have to say this, of all places here?
I agree with the general statement that liberalism is sometimes, maybe even often, overzealous in attempting to protect people from offensive speech. But to associate this with the 6 million dead under Hitler or, if you backpedal and go for the term "fascist" instead, with the Stalinist gulags or with Mussolini or Franco, reduces the scale of the human tragedy to a mere figure of speech. No. No, I can't just sit quietly and accept this as sensible in any way.
Had I not seen the photos again and heard the accounts again today, I might have been just bothered. Instead, my disgust is renewed with the way we toss around "Nazi" and "fascist" so casually. Civilized people should leave that kind of garbage to the Fox News set, who refuse to know any better.
Joined: Dec 23, 2005 Posts: 4127 Location: Mount Hope, KS USA
Audio files: 96
Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:12 pm Post subject:
Quote:
I can't even remember what a "liberal" party is.
It's the kind you wake up after and don't recall the name of or what you did with the person sleeping beside you.
I love Ovation TV, BTW, though it's just as afflicted with commercials as anything else. I saw that Leon Theremin documentary on it a month or so ago. What a treat!
I have to agree that repeated exposure to odorous things tends to take the smell away from what they truly are. _________________ My Site
Probably the reason I can't remember is that I was never taught.
I don't understand "left wing" and "right wing" either.
So when Tom starts ranting about "liberals" I have no idea whether the nazi's were or not, maybe he's being sarcastic, I have no idea! _________________ What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there.
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8932 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:38 am Post subject:
Uncle Krunkus wrote:
I don't understand "left wing" and "right wing" either.
There is no left or right wing any more.
All political parties pretty much share the same agenda today in Britain, and they also share the opinions of the fascists too -like holding people for 60 days without reason or trial, or letting the police hold crowds of people in areas during peaceful demonstration, regardless of whether they are part of a demonstration or not. These two, and there are many more examples like these, are tactics which were used by the nazis for eg, in Germany when Hitler came to power.
Throwing rotten eggs at Nick Griffin (who although is not a fascist, shares all similarities with fascist thinking and philosophies, and is a vile little shit of a toadbag arsehole- who wants to see the same thing happen to the people who are throwing eggs at him. Do you see what I am getting at?? (@ thundarr). Nick Griffin wants YOU to shutup. He wants YOU not to have opinions- but liberal governments- such as Labour, want exactly the same thing, and they are implementing that right now. We have in this country all the classic signs and indicators of what was happenning to Germany as Hitler rose to power- but all nicey nicey (except that it isn't- it's just another blow for human rights in the UK).
thundarr wrote:
v-un-v wrote:
Really? Where is the difference? The anti nazi league with their vile liberal antics are no different from Nick Griffin.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this statement
Well I wish you would do one or the other! This is precisely the kind of reaction that has caused our leaders to desert us. Or more to the point, they can't make up their minds how to move forward, and what we are left with is this very wooly middle liberalist ground, where no one is prepared to take up leadership. Just look at MMR vaccination. Blair wouldn't say whether his children had had the vaccination or not, and as a consequence, we have a vast amount of hysterical parents who distrust the pharmaceutical industry, and we have new outbreaks of rubella and measles breaking out across the country.
thundarr wrote:
What are these vile liberal antics? Opposing fascism? Throwing eggs at Mr Griffin?
Well why don't you go and throw eggs at Gordon Brown or David Cameron too? Their policies are just as severe as Griffin. Same difference.
thundarr wrote:
Regardless of their antics, there is a middle ground here... There is no need to bring up minority far-left groups when our political system is fortunately very mid-field (relatively).
Quote:
The BNP were democratically elected, therefore they do, whether you like it or not, have a right to free speech.
Of course they do... The HUGE difference here is that the BNP are a joke party supported by a tiny minority. They do not have entire news networks backing them, and huge public support.
They certainly do now, or at least it looks like it's going that way (news networks backing them). Do you watch TV? Did you watch TV program the other night on BBC2 called "Death of Respect", by John Ware? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00ls7h7/Death_of_Respect_Episode_1/) It played directly into the hands of the far right, in fact it was almost a BNP party political broadcast- and it's a series. What about all those countless programmes on TV about "chavs", car stealing, burglaries, the working class "scum", the innocent bystander etc etc- more Griffin fodder.
thundarr wrote:
I wouldn't trade our relatively liberal (note, this actually means central, not far-left) position for one with huge far-right support, even if it meant we could build some better vacuum cleaners.
It's a shame, but you don't appear to understand Karl Marx very well. Capitalism could work, it could work very well, just not the system it operates now. _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8932 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:58 am Post subject:
dewdrop_world wrote:
Today's liberal parties are in no way, shape or form a repeat of Nazism.
Erm, wrong. Open your eyes James- well being American, maybe you don't see what's happening in the UK? But there are Poles, who have been working here moving back from the UK to Poland, some of them have expressed concerns of what they are seeing in the UK what was seen in nazi Germany as Hitler came to power. We have a very weak government with little leadership, and because of recent terrorist attacks in London, new bills are being introduced that severely curtail our human rights in the UK. The people putting these laws in power are liberals who have run out of leadership and are therefore drawing upon straws (I'm trying to be specific, but it's abig area, and I haven't got time to go into this in a big way this afternoon).
I can give you loads of examples of recently introduced British laws which bear more than a passing resemblance to ideas pioneered by the fascists and the nazis. It's very depressing and British bureaucracy makes it all the more difficult to deal with.
Read Spiked Online for much good information. They are very good at uncovering and reporting much of the stuff the British liberal media don't broadcast. Many contributors of Spiked are also part of the Institute of Ideas who are slowly making inrails via media such as BBC Radio 4 (Claire Fox for eg on "The Moral Maze").
_________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8932 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:23 am Post subject:
dewdrop_world wrote:
my disgust is renewed with the way we toss around "Nazi" and "fascist" so casually.
I agree. Please don't get me wrong (I am very much in the libertarian Communist/ Marxist camp!). It is highly important to distinguish between what fascism and nazism is and what bears resemblance today to both of these movements.
Nick Griffin, BNP, is an absolute arsehole. He's NOT a fascist (it is very important to emphasise this), but he shares many if not all ideology with the fascist movement- which incidentally is Italian.
What happened in Germany will hopefully never be repeated, but what I am saying is that several new British laws bear more than a passing resemblance to these original nazi and fascist ideologies, and if and where possible they must be challenged. But the British government are doing their up most best to make that impossible for us. They are liberal governments, and just because they haven't yet gassed anyone, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't challenge the oppression of our civil liberties.
Tom _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Joined: Aug 28, 2006 Posts: 858 Location: Guangzhou, China
Audio files: 4
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:07 am Post subject:
You're quite right that I'm coming at this from the US perspective. Thanks for the schooling on what's going on in Britain.
In the US, authoritarian tendencies concentrate for the most part on the conservative end of the spectrum, most obviously among the far-right Republican fringe. Many of that sort to use phrases like "liberal Nazis," "Liberal Fascism" (e.g., that idiot Jonah Goldberg on nationalreview.com) etc. to distract people from the fact that they are the ones who want to insert the government into people's bedrooms etc. My natural instinct is to bristle whenever that meme seems to be popping up.
Now, the historical analogies put your comment in a different category. Now that you mention it, I recall hearing of CCTV-mania and the insane restrictions on public musicmaking. I don't doubt there are other examples.
Joined: Jan 18, 2005 Posts: 4145 Location: Sweden
Audio files: 371
G2 patch files: 100
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:34 am Post subject:
What you hear about crowd-control in the UK does sound alarming. I see similar, though not as hardcore tendencies here in Sweden, mostly regarding legislation that allows various authorities to monitor and affect the internet without court orders. A counterresponse to this has been the rise of the pirate party, now in the european parlament. Though they're mostly associated with being pro-file sharing, a big part of their agenda is about protecting individual integrity in general (the internet playing a large role for many individuals' identities these days).
Joined: Jun 07, 2009 Posts: 124 Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:18 pm Post subject:
Firstly, someone who shares "all similarities with fascist thinking and philosophies" is a fascist. That seems simple enough.
I am not a fan of any of our political parties (I do not vote, for this reason), but to equate Labour and Conservative policies to those of the BNP is both sensationalist and downright wrong. (Withdrawal from NATO, Clamping down on Asylum seekers, Withdrawal from the EU, for instance)
Of course, no governments want people to speak against them, but the difference is that relatively liberal governments allow it, rather than suppressing it.
Quote:
Well I wish you would do one or the other! This is precisely the kind of reaction that has caused our leaders to desert us. Or more to the point, they can't make up their minds how to move forward, and what we are left with is this very wooly middle liberalist ground, where no one is prepared to take up leadership. Just look at MMR vaccination. Blair wouldn't say whether his children had had the vaccination or not, and as a consequence, we have a vast amount of hysterical parents who distrust the pharmaceutical industry, and we have new outbreaks of rubella and measles breaking out across the country.
Caused our leaders to desert us? You make it sound like these 'leaders' really know what's best for us. If our government is sitting on the fence, good! "Wooly middle liberalist ground" is exactly where I want this country to be... It is action without thinking within a system that leads to extremism, rather than inaction. I would much rather the UK had sat on the fence when it came to invading Iraq, for instance.
The MMR vaccine hysteria was produced by the media, not the government, taking an inconclusive report on MMR and blowing it out of all proportions.
We have people distrusting the pharmaceutical industry? Excellent! That is how it should be. All big business should be distrusted by default, as its sole aim is making money.
I like that the BNP has a right to free speech... I have not suggested otherwise, nor have the other political parties.
To suggest that the BNP's policies are similar to those of the major political parties is madness... Griffin has produced publications ranging from Holocaust denial ("The Rune") to overt anti-semitism ("Who are the Mindbenders?") to anti-Islamic ones. You are being sensationalist again, and this does our global friends no favours when it comes to informing them of the situation in the UK.
Again, I am no fan of any of our political parties, but we must view these issues objectively without resorting to sentationalism or insane comparisons. I am worried about the increase in surveillance in our society, but this is a long way from institutionalised oppression of minorities. Certainly compared to elsewhere in the globe, we have it very very easy.
As for Karl Marx, he had some good ideas, but my political views are more affiliated to those of Bertrand Russell. I am certainly no fan of capitalism.
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8932 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:10 pm Post subject:
You are completely missing the point, and more importantly you are, in typical liberal style, blurring what a fascist really is. Fascism is a movement that happened in Italy, NOT England.
Nick Griffin is absolutely right to say that his treatment has been non-democratic, because he is right! I still think he is a vile racist, biggoted arsehole, but if we carry on like we are, those who shout him down and disallow him from speaking, are no different to Nick Griffin himself, (I repeat; "a man with an ideology not far off the ideology of the fascists of Italy")! Am I making myself clear yet???
You should still vote. Even if you have no one to vote for (it sounds crazy- yes but....). Look what happened in France, with Le Pen. Le Pen almost got in, because voters became complacent and didn't vote.
Invading Iraq has nothing to do with this argument. However I agree with you that we should have never gone into Iraq (or Afghanistan for that matter), but as a consequence, we now have young British middle class Asians who are prepared to kill themselves by blowing themselves up on trains and busses- but that's another story altogether.
I'm sorry but you are wrong about the British government having nothing to do with the MMR scare. The MMR scare was indeed fanned by the media, by journalists who knew little about science. The point I was making is that Tony Blair sat on his hands and refused to admit whether his children received the vaccine or not. As I said before, what kind of message is that sending the people of Britain? So, like it or not, the government were responsible for the outcome of the scare. They still haven't intervened. Still sitting on their hands. Read "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre. It's a good book.
Thundarr wrote:
o suggest that the BNP's policies are similar to those of the major political parties is madness...
I'm sorry mate, I don't want to be rude, or even start a flame war, but you really need to think hard about what you have just stated- very hard.
We now have cameras on every street corner- and for what? We have shopping centres where if you drop litter, an operator in a control room with a megaphone orders you to pick it up or face arrest. Giant posters are placed to spy on your neighbours and report anything suspicious to a hot line. This isn't sensationalist- it's out there, in the UK now. We have new laws, where previous ones were just as adaquate, which can hold any one who the Police thinks are suspicious- hold them in a cell without trial for up to 60 days- you don't think that this bears just a smidgen of a passing resemblance to what was happening in the lead up to the holocaust? Identity cards... how much more do I need to wave in front of your face?? All of these examples have consequences on our civil liberties, none of which have been implemented by Griffin And before you start ranting on at me about anti-Islamic sentiment, I also live right in the heart of one of the most densely populated Muslim areas of Britain (my local councillor is Salma Yaquob, of the Respect party- I know Salma, and have worked for her), and work within the voluntary sector right in the middle of this community. Local guys sit on my wall, and tell me about the amount of times they are stopped and searched for now apparent reason at all apart from the fact that they are asian. So please don't patronise me about Griffin verses liberalism. Griffin is scum, but so are the Labour party, just in a more 'acceptable' way.
Last of all, if you like Bertrand Russell, what do you think of immigration? I support the No Borders campaign. What do you think of that? _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Joined: Jun 07, 2009 Posts: 124 Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:51 pm Post subject:
Quote:
You are completely missing the point, and more importantly you are, in typical liberal style, blurring what a fascist really is. Fascism is a movement that happened in Italy, NOT England.
By that same reasoning, Communism is a movement that happened in Germany, NOT Russia, or China. It is the name for an ideology, it has no geographical restriction, while it may have originated in one place.
Quote:
Nick Griffin is absolutely right to say that his treatment has been non-democratic, because he is right! I still think he is a vile racist, biggoted arsehole, but if we carry on like we are, those who shout him down and disallow him from speaking, are no different to Nick Griffin himself, (I repeat; "a man with an ideology not far off the ideology of the fascists of Italy")! Am I making myself clear yet???
Well, we have the rights to throw eggs at politicians too... I'm happy to see that happen to any of them, to be honest. On a more serious note, you have a point here, I had not considered that throwing eggs could be an impairment of free speech, but it could intimidate to that effect.
Quote:
You should still vote. Even if you have no one to vote for (it sounds crazy- yes but....). Look what happened in France, with Le Pen. Le Pen almost got in, because voters became complacent and didn't vote.
You are probably right, but I have become so disillusioned with the 'Vote for the least worst' system, and the poor selection of canditates and parties, that it would take the possibility of an extremist group getting into power to get me to consider the more liberal parties worth voting for. As it is, it is just a choice between several parties with essentially the same policies.
Quote:
Invading Iraq has nothing to do with this argument. However I agree with you that we should have never gone into Iraq (or Afghanistan for that matter), but as a consequence, we now have young British middle class Asians who are prepared to kill themselves by blowing themselves up on trains and busses- but that's another story altogether.
It has a lot to do with a government 'sitting on the fence' rather than taking immediate, decisive action without proper discussion. I am glad we agree on this matter otherwise
Quote:
I'm sorry but you are wrong about the British government having nothing to do with the MMR scare. The MMR scare was indeed fanned by the media, by journalists who knew little about science. The point I was making is that Tony Blair sat on his hands and refused to admit whether his children received the vaccine or not. As I said before, what kind of message is that sending the people of Britain? So, like it or not, the government were responsible for the outcome of the scare. They still haven't intervened. Still sitting on their hands. Read "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre. It's a good book.
Well, he had two choices... Say that he supported the vaccine, and risk finding out that it was dangerous, or say he was against the vaccine, and risk looking stupid. Regardless of what he said, it was not his fault that it was blown out of all proportions, and the situation was way too out-of-control by that point for anything he said to make any real difference.
Quote:
I'm sorry mate, I don't want to be rude, or even start a flame war, but you really need to think hard about what you have just stated- very hard.
It's ok, I have no intention of taking part in a flame war. I realise these are contentious issues, and from my experience of these forums so far I trust it not to degenerate into one
Quote:
We have shopping centres where if you drop litter, an operator in a control room with a megaphone orders you to pick it up or face arrest. Giant posters are placed to spy on your neighbours and report anything suspicious to a hot line. This isn't sensationalist- it's out there, in the UK now.
I've been around the UK quite a lot, and I have yet to see any of these things... Hence smacking of sensationalism to me. I also live in a similar area to you, with many Asian friends, and they have spoken of no similar troubles. So, hopefully you can understand my skepticism.
Quote:
So please don't patronise me about Griffin verses liberalism. Griffin is scum, but so are the Labour party, just in a more 'acceptable' way.
Oh, I agree with you entirely. I have tried to point out my disgust for our politicians in general, but I do think there are varying degrees of bastardness (apologies, no other word seems appropriate enough here )
Quote:
Last of all, if you like Bertrand Russell, what do you think of immigration? I support the No Borders campaign. What do you think of that?
Here we are again in absolute agreement. I dislike the idea of 'countries', and while I realise it may be a rather a naive and idealist viewpoint that we will reach a point where humanity works in a cooperative rather than competitive way in our lifetime, and we can abolish the idea of people being different based on their geographical location at time of conception... It is something that we can at least work towards.
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8932 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1
Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:41 am Post subject:
thundarr wrote:
Quote:
You are completely missing the point, and more importantly you are, in typical liberal style, blurring what a fascist really is. Fascism is a movement that happened in Italy, NOT England.
By that same reasoning, Communism is a movement that happened in Germany, NOT Russia, or China. It is the name for an ideology, it has no geographical restriction, while it may have originated in one place.
Yes, you are right. Communism was worldwide movement that happened in Germany before the Nazis rose to power, but the difference between Communism and then Fascism and Nazism is that the latter two believed in one race only. You can be from any background, race or colour to be a communist. Franco should also be mentioned too. Franco was a Authoritarian Dictator, so too was Stalin (who of course was leader of a communist state) and like Griffin, shared many aspects of both the Nazis and the Fascists. Like I said, and I wouldn't necessarily put it past him, Griffin has yet to hang people by their necks using piano wire, like the Fascists and the Nazis did, so he is neither of the latter- but shares very similar views.
Lastly it WAS Blair's fault on MMR, because as Prime Minister, it was his duty to act as a leader but still he didn't take a stance. This is really important- you must think about how important this is for the people of England. Blair took his own stance on the Iraqi war (and didn't listen to his own people), and look what happened.
We need massive investment and leadership from our governments in the UK for both R&D and industry, for both jobs and our future. Without this we are fucked (organic farming and healing crystals won't feed the masses). If you want to sit around, being complacent, you must accept the consequences.
Anyway ("and on that bombshell" as pompous mr Clarkson would say ), I'll come back to this in two weeks, because I am off on holiday in about 2 hours
_________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Joined: Jan 18, 2005 Posts: 4145 Location: Sweden
Audio files: 371
G2 patch files: 100
Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:29 am Post subject:
Lately I've been feeling that it might be a good thing to strengthen the borders between nations, to keep the differences. This reasoning has a million holes in it, but I fear for complete corporate takeover of a globalized world. It's governments that keep the psychopathic companies in check, and governments become weaker the bigger they get.
I'm thinking about perhaps a Neal Stephenson-like world, where nations aren't bound geographically, but are more like clubs that you buy membership in, who then protect you as if they were nations.
And I don't want the states to turn into Sweden, or vice versa. I want to be able go to one or the other (or third), if I feel that I would be more comfortable in a different environment. This last bit may just be silly nostalgism.
On that last point about keeping national individualism, I think it's very important. In a union of states, like the USA, there is always a trade off between the national government and states rights. I do not think there is a solution to this dichotomy, but rather an ebb and flow driven by the political process. _________________ --Howard
my music and other stuff
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum
Forum index » Discussion » Schmooze
FAQ
Calendar
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Chat Room
impressive 
What are these vile liberal antics? Opposing fascism? Throwing eggs at Mr Griffin?
