General Nord Modular (NM/G2) advice needed

mosc · Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 3:39 pm Post subject:

I remember when the Moog Modulars first hit the streets. People hated the sound. Many many subjective reasons were given to justify these opinions. Also, many pseudo-technical reasons were presented.

When people heard Buchlas they said they didn't sound as good as Moogs. Similar subjective reasons were provided and associated pseudo-technical reasons as well.

The same happened when digital recording replaced tape, CDs replaced vinyl, transistors replaced tubes. DX7, samplers, etc etc etc...

Lots of people want the G2 to emulate other earlier synths, or even a modern one.

Some people don't like the sounds of laptops.

I like Moogs, Buchlas, CDs, digital recording, DX7s, and G2s.

For years I have been on the dark side. Twisted Evil

Kassen · Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 3:46 pm Post subject:

elektro80 · Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:07 pm Post subject:

elektro80 · Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:30 pm Post subject:

Jason · Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:32 pm Post subject:

I love my G2 engine , I sleep with it, but taking it in and out of the rack at times is hard. I love all keyboards and instruments. I dont know what these polka boards are you speak of are. But anyways...
I love my G2 Embarassed

Oh yes , and continue to like it no matter what crazy inaudible frequencies are coming from its beautiful outputs....

Tim Kleinert · Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:42 pm Post subject:

I admit to being not a fan of the "G2 sound" myself for a long time. If you remember, I even sold my two expanded G2s and took a detour into real-analogue territory.

That change felt fantastic for a while -until the drawbacks of real-analogue started to bug me: the irreproducibility of many sounds, the component drift which made precision sounddesign impossible, the unreliability, the cost, the bulk...

I came back to the G2 for good, and upgraded to the G2X at the same time (yes, I do find use for the extra wheels and the LEDs in the wheels are a big advantage on dark stages. )

I then listened more intently to what was annoying me in the sound, and studied Robs work on DIY-filters and allpass-based "warming" circuits too. I found out that a slight but wide ditch around 2,5 kHz and a dab of Robs warming circuit does it for me.

For me, the G2 sound isn't "perfect". No synth sound is. But I just love this synth. It's my dream machine. love

I remember dreaming about just such a thing a few years back: an instrument with rotary encoders and displays above those, where you could make your own signal flow and interface. And here it is. Sometimes I still can't believe it.

Jason · Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:49 pm Post subject:

cebec · Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:59 pm Post subject:

Tim Kleinert · Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 2:02 am Post subject:

On a sidenote: Here's a test patch that compares audiorate and controlrate modulation.

Two audiorate oscillators are amplitude-modulating each other. In a second signal path however, the modulator is "degraded" to controlrate before going into the multiplier. The two signals are then subtracted from each other to get the "difference" (which can be boosted if necessary).

Don't get too worked up about the sheer amplitude of this exposed "difference", as it blends into the source (compare it to the "ctrl" signal). However, it is still baffling to notice how much "funky stuff" is going on in this digital domain. Oh well... Rolling Eyes

...could be worse. Eg., the Alesis Andromeda modulation engine clocks at laughable 100Hz, so when you introduce more and more modulations, you get this nice 100Hz hum in the background. Makes you compose all your tracks in the key of Ab. Laughing

Ah -there's no such thing as a free lunch.

CtrlAudioTest TK.pch2

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does exactly as it says... or your money back!

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CtrlAudioTest TK.pch2

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paul e. · Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:13 am Post subject:

my 2.5 cents

when i was in the store recently, in a serious listening/purchasing mode, 2 synths immediately just blew every other synths away..made the rest seem like pretenders

1. the moog voyager

2. G2X [and the nord lead 3 for that matter]

their superiority to other 'modern' synths was very obvious and quite vast actually

[it was a case of cash flow that i could not purchase either synth...but i am sure i would have leaned toward clavia..even tho i loved the moog voyager too...]

anyway, what do i know hehe

paul e. · Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:22 am Post subject:

btw

when elektro 80 uses the term 'polka board' i am assuming he means synths like the 'triton' or 'v-synth' or worse the 'phantom' [sorry if i offend users of those synths]

those 400 programme, digital disasters...ugh..those sound..ah forget it...it's silly...

cebec · Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 10:27 am Post subject:

Cool test, tim! I patched together something identical [i hope] on the nm1.
The 'stuff' looks and sounds, about the same. The only difference, it seems, from looking at the plot, is that the G2's HF doesn't roll off as quickly after 10 kHz as the nm1 does.
Here is the patch.

ctrlaudiotest_tk.pch

Description:

tim's test. for the NM 1/Classic

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ctrlaudiotest_tk.pch

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Kassen · Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:11 pm Post subject:

Kassen · Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:13 pm Post subject:

Tim Kleinert · Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:56 pm Post subject:

"Polka board" -I've never heard this expression before. Makes me laugh. I'll remember it.

When rereading this discussion, I deeply regret never having heard a NM1 in person. I almost bought a new NM1 rack I had spotted in some store -but as I had the cash together it was already gone. Too bad. I know I'd love it too.

Bottom line is: I love Clavia gear. Their concepts just appeal to me. I still discover new stuff on the NL3, even after all this time. And the G2 is just boundless. And I'm interested in the Nord Stage too, since it could replace some other old "gigging workhorses" of mine.

See -This may be something the avant-garde, "mad professor synthesist" folks among you might not understand. But there really are musical situations where you just need to be able to hit that "fender rhodes" or "clavinet" button as fast as possible and go for it. I'm in such situations quite frequently, as well as rummaging around in the "mad professor" department.

Hence, I guess those "polka boards" do have their validity. Although I wouldn't want one either.

Afro88 · Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:33 pm Post subject:

Sorry Tim, I'm not sure I understand. It looks to me like you're downsampling the carrier wave, the wave that is getting it's volume modulated. Shouldn't the modulating wave be downsampled to compare aliasing in control and audio rate modulation signals?

It looks like you've downsampled a saw wave and you're comparing it to a normal saw wave. One would definitely expect noise here... when do we ever unintentionally downsample the wave we're modulating?

I've attached a patch where the wave that modulates the saw wave's volume is downsampled to the control rate. The difference between the two is very soft - you have to gain it by 70dB to be able to hear it. And even then, the difference sounds very similar to the original wave, so it could be some kind of signal bleed or something (which still doesn't make it ok by any means...)

ctrlaudiotest_tk2.pch2

Description:

control/audio rate modulation

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ctrlaudiotest_tk2.pch2

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cebec · Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:28 pm Post subject:

Attached is the NM1 version of Afro's version of the ctrlaudiotest_tk patch. Also, two screenshots of plots of the patches running on both machines. on the NM1 the sound is much grainier, fizzier, and has a recurrent click, like a metronome. Both are gained by 72 dB.

g2 ctrlaudiotest tk2.jpg

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nm1 ctrlaudiotest tk2.jpg

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ctrlaudiotest tk2.pch

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ctrlaudiotest tk2.pch

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Afro88 · Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:27 pm Post subject:

Woah, I wasn't expecting that. That peak at 24/25k is almost as loud as the fundamental Shocked

elektro80 · Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:34 pm Post subject:

Shouldn´t the Clavia guys drop by and tell us what we are looking at?

elektro80 · Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:46 pm Post subject:

Chet · Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:00 pm Post subject:

Well, I'm glad I can't hear 24kHz! Maybe Kassen's problem is that he can!

Perhaps we're looking at the G2's anti-aliasing algorithms in action. I seem to remember that some anti-aliasing schemes don't actually eliminate troublesome frequencies, but move them around and bunch them so they can't be heard.

For example, look at cebec's pulse-wave comparisons between the NM1 and the G2. The NM1 aliasing frequencies look pretty random, while the G2's are not, indicating to me that some extra process is going on in the G2 oscillator.

Just a guess.

Tim Kleinert · Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 10:49 pm Post subject:

Tim Kleinert · Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 10:53 pm Post subject:

Kassen · Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:15 am Post subject:

Kassen · Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:18 am Post subject: