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The Threeler
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frijitz



Joined: May 04, 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Glad you got it working!

The docs give suggested changes for +/- 15 V operation. I think these have worked OK for some folks.

Very Happy

Ian
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

EDIT - Just heard from Scott at Bridechamber and apparently these pots from Futurlec have the correct spacing, if anyone didn't already realize that but were wondering.

Anyone know if the PCB mounted Alpha pots from Futurlec will fit the Bridechamber board?
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Ian,

Will this trim pot fit the board:

http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=PT10LV10-101A2020virtualkey53100000virtualkey531-PT10V-100

The photo is of a vertical trimmer but it's a 10mm horizontal one.

Also, just checking PE for the caps on the BOM means Polyester Film, right?

Thanks!
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

numbertalk wrote:
Will this trim pot fit the board:.......

Also, just checking PE for the caps on the BOM means Polyester Film, right?
NT --

That is the 1 V/Oct trimmer, so you will want a multiturn unit. Here's what I've been using:
http://mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=vRUVABdJU92WAbuETXAfHg%3d%3d

Yes, PE is polyester (or mylar).

Very Happy

Ian
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Great - thank you!
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frequencycentral



Joined: May 25, 2008
Posts: 186
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

From the "CV control of cutoff on Sallen Key low pass filter?" topic:

frijitz wrote:
loss1234 wrote:
i would have NEVER guessed that as yours looks so much more complex than the diagrams i was looking at for the sallen key lowpass..

The Threeler isn't much more complicated, and it's way more versatile than a mere S-K.

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-23766.html

Very Happy

Ian


Is there a schematic available? Have I missed something? It sounds fascinating.

_________________
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:47 pm    Post subject:
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Hi Ian,

I just finished my Threeler this weekend and have a few questions.

To give you some background, I'm using this with +/-15VDC, so I made the resistor changes you suggest in the documentation. Secondly, it's a long story, and I do plan to switch these out with the correct ones very soon, but at the moment, for A1-4 & A6 I ended up using a hodgepodge of different dual op amps (TL062, TL082, MC1458, and 2 MC4558s, basically all the dual op amps I was able to last-minute scrounge up at the house on a Sunday), just to get my build to work. Also I'm using B100K pots for Coarse & Fine controls.

The filter does work and sounds great. It also seems to have the correct frequency range for the different modes, but I'm noticing that the range seems pretty tightly compacted within the latter 1/2 of the Coarse knob's rotation (between 1/2 way up and fully CW). I get nothing for the first full 1/2 rotation (from CCW to midpoint) of Coarse. I looked at the self oscillation signal on my scope and starting with Coarse turned fully CW I get a waveform until the Coarse knob reaches just CCW from the midpoint. Here the signal on my scope turns into what looks like a DC signal somewhere above 0V (was using my scope in DC mode).

Is this behavior a result of the op-amps I'm currently using? I must confess my ignorance in regards to understanding the choices for the different op amps here exactly and how the ones I'm using are impacting the character or performance of the circuit. Or do you think is this because I'm using +/-15V and if so, what should I change? You mention in the docs that further change might need to be made to R35 to extend the filter's range, but it doesn't necessarily look like the frequency range is a problem here, because the high end is right around what you mention it should be for the different modes and the lows go quite low (can't quite remember exactly at the moment but it seemed like a reasonable low end of the spectrum). It's more that the Coarse *knob's* range seems skewed and all scrunches the frequency range into that 2nd half of rotation instead of nicely spreading it out across the entire range of rotation. But maybe this is the expected behavior?

Also wanted to confirm the process I used to calibrate the V/Oct trimmer. I took the CV out from my keyboard, fed it to a VCO and also fed it to the V/Oct input on the filter (full resonance, no audio input to the Threeler). I used the Coarse knob to match the octave range of the note I was getting from the VCO (as you suggest I used the octave around the 100-200Hz range to tune to). Then I used the Fine tune pot to tune up the lower note of the octave with the tone from my VCO. Then I hit the higher octave, tweaked the multi-turn trimmer until that note was in tune, then went back to the lower note, tweaked the Fine control as well as the trimmer and then back and forth across the octave like this for several turns until it was close enough for this particular octave. Does this sound ok? I wasn't sure what the settings for Coarse and Fine should have been going into calibrating the trimmer.

Finally, sorry for the tome here, but one more question while I have your ear. What really made me decide to build this filter was this 2nd audio clip you posted - http://www.electro-music.com/forum/download.php?id=11414 - I know it's output 2 in mode 2 and you mention the modules you used in your first posting here, but do you mind elaborating a bit more on that patch for me, (the rough settings on the Threeler, etc) - in particular for the sounds you were getting during the 1st 1/2 of the sample (it almost sounds like monks chanting).

Thank you for the help, your patience and a great project!
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frijitz



Joined: May 04, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:08 am    Post subject:
Subject description: warning - lengthy posting!
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numbertalk wrote:
... at the moment, for A1-4 & A6 I ended up using a hodgepodge of different dual op amps (TL062, TL082, MC1458, and 2 MC4558s, basically all the dual op amps I was able to last-minute scrounge up at the house on a Sunday), just to get my build to work.

Hey NT! Glad you got it running. It's always a good idea to get a circuit working with inexpensive parts, just in case something blows. You're doing it right. Very Happy

Quote:
... I'm noticing that the range seems pretty tightly compacted within the latter 1/2 of the Coarse knob's rotation (between 1/2 way up and fully CW). I get nothing for the first full 1/2 rotation (from CCW to midpoint) of Coarse. I looked at the self oscillation signal on my scope and starting with Coarse turned fully CW I get a waveform until the Coarse knob reaches just CCW from the midpoint. Here the signal on my scope turns into what looks like a DC signal...

Is this behavior a result of the op-amps I'm currently using?

Yep, now you see why I used high-performance opamps. Laughing

On my unit, in mode 1, the top freq is ~30 kHz, at midpoint of the coarse control it is ~55 Hz, and the lowest frequency I get before the oscillations die out is ~0.04 Hz (25 sec period), fairly close to the bottom of the pot's range.

Your oscillations are most likely dying out sooner because of input current leakage in the buffers A1b, A3a and A5. A certain amount of leakage becomes a larger and larger fraction of the current into the cap as the freq decreases. Eventually the oscillations damp out entirely.

Another (less likely) possibility is that the caps C2, C3, C5 are leaky. Make sure you have good low-leakage units in there, and if they are polystyrene, that you didn't damage them with too much heat.

At any rate, give it a shot with better opamps, and I think you'll find it acceptable. If you still want to decrease the frequency span, you can increase R28. (If you want half as many octaves, then double it, etc.) And then to move the overall frequency up or down, change R35. I usually have a fairly wide span because I have no way of knowing what peoples' controller range is.

Quote:
Also wanted to confirm the process I used to calibrate the V/Oct trimmer.......Does this sound ok? I wasn't sure what the settings for Coarse and Fine should have been going into calibrating the trimmer.


Yes, that sound about right. You use the coarse/fine controls to match the low note, then the trimmer to match the high note. Back and forth until you get convergence.

Quote:
I know it's output 2 in mode 2 and you mention the modules you used in your first posting here, but do you mind elaborating a bit more on that patch for me, (the rough settings on the Threeler, etc) - in particular for the sounds you were getting during the 1st 1/2 of the sample (it almost sounds like monks chanting).


That one took quite a bit of tweaking, as you can imagine. Unfortunately, I didn't write down any of the settings, and after a year I can't remember them either. Sad

If you listen carefully you will hear a high-frequency "drone" coming and going. That is from the filter Q being modulated to a large value. So you can get some idea of the freq setting from that (maybe). Acording to my notes, which may be inaccurate as well as incomplete, the patch is a moderately complex self-running setup with over 20 modules. The audio chain uses a Saw VCO driving a SNICster Saw/Tri morpher, followed by a six-phase waveform animator feeding the filter through a VCA.

CV modulation for the VCO, VCA, filter f and filter Q, comes from a set of modules including 3 TGTSHs, 5 AllIn EGs, 2 VCAs and 9 LFOs.

Quote:
Thank you for the help, your patience and a great project!


Thanks for your interest! This was a long project, and I'm alway glad to hear about peoples' experiences with it.

Very Happy

Ian
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thank you so much for all the info! I figured that patch was pretty involved but sounds so great. Really looking forward to digging into this module.

Also, I used polystyrene for those 3 caps. Pretty sure I didn't damage them, but how could I know & make sure I didn't? I guess I can see if I'm having this issue even after I replace the op amps.

Thanks again Very Happy
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

numbertalk wrote:
Also, I used polystyrene for those 3 caps. Pretty sure I didn't damage them, but how could I know & make sure I didn't?

Hard to tell. Replace them and leave the leads long and solder quickly. Or replace them with C0G types. One builder couldn't get a module to work and ended up sending it to me. I had a hunch the caps were damaged, even though they looked OK visually. Sure enough, replacing them fixed the problems. I think this has happened to three people (that I know of) in the past year.

But yes, by all means get some good opamps in there first.

Very Happy

Ian
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks again. The new op amps are ordered and I'll report back once I get them!

frijitz wrote:
numbertalk wrote:
Also, I used polystyrene for those 3 caps. Pretty sure I didn't damage them, but how could I know & make sure I didn't?

Hard to tell. Replace them and leave the leads long and solder quickly. Or replace them with C0G types. One builder couldn't get a module to work and ended up sending it to me. I had a hunch the caps were damaged, even though they looked OK visually. Sure enough, replacing them fixed the problems. I think this has happened to three people (that I know of) in the past year.

But yes, by all means get some good opamps in there first.

Very Happy

Ian
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Ian,

So I got the correct op amp chips and it seems the range is proper now! I'm maxing out around 44MHz (with Coarse & Fine at max CW setting), around 45Hz at mid-point (both Coarse & Fine 1/2 way up) & then bottoming out right at .04Hz (with Coarse & Fine both all the way down at max CCW setting). Sounds like it shouldn't matter but FYI I used output 1 with mode 2 when I took these measurements.

Thanks again.
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

numbertalk wrote:
So I got the correct op amp chips and it seems the range is proper now!

thumright
Glad to hear that. Thanks for reporting back.

Very Happy

Ian
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softfin



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I finished building my Threelers yesterday. Now that I've been testing i I noticed that the outputs are pretty much silent when resonance is below 9'o'clock. So it works fine when resonance is higher but no sound with low resonance Is this normal behaviour or should I start replacing OTAs on these (bought mine from futurlec and know people have gotten bad ones from them)...?

Help would be much appreciated.

EDIT: Ok, read back in this thread and it seems like this is normal behaviour indeed. No problem then I guess...
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softfin



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok. Now after some more testing and exploring my pair of Threelers I have to admit these provide a whole new range of sounds compared to my other filters... love
This one took quite a bit of space in my modular and there's actually space left for only one module. And my studio is almost as small as a bathroom so I think I won't be building too many modules any more...
This is probably wishful thinking, as I probably find space on the floor or on the ceiling anyway when I once again get inspired to build this and that interesting 'must have' module Laughing

Anyway, great work on this one Mr. Fritz! well done
After finding the Threeler to be such a great module, I'm intrigued to try some of your other designs as well.
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softfin



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:46 am    Post subject:  how does your threeler follow pitch ? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just spent an hour or so adjusting V/oct on my Threelers... It seems the adjusting is more about finding the right CA3280s than actually adjusting the v/oct trimmer Wink
I managed to get one filter to track cleanly about 3 octaves and roughly (5-10cents variation) 5octaves with first random CA3280s I put in.
The second filter didn't track even 2 octaves after careful trimming so I started swapping CA3280s to that one. After finding better chips than the ones I initially put in, I managed to adjust it to track similarly to the first Threeler. Both track pitch equally now and I think the roughly 5 octaves of tracking seems to be the limit with my CA3280s.

It would be interesting hear also others' experiences about how well they managed to get their Threeler to track. Any experiences you want to share Question

Another point, it seems there's noticeable difference in sound (when oscillating) between my two Threelers which is not really a bad thing at all. I believe this is caused by the differences between each CA3280. I might be wrong though, so if you know better, please chime in Smile
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:34 am    Post subject: Re: how does your threeler follow pitch ? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

softfin wrote:
Both track pitch equally now and I think the roughly 5 octaves of tracking seems to be the limit with my CA3280s.

Sounds about right. I get something like 1% error over 100 Hz to 2 kHz. The tracking depends on which mode is used and on the signal level also.

Quote:
Another point, it seems there's noticeable difference in sound (when oscillating) between my two Threelers which is not really a bad thing at all.

Yeah, the filter's topology seems quite sensitive to OTA nonidealities. You might look at the oscillations with a scope and see if you can't get the same waveform by adjusting the resonance.

Very Happy

Ian
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softfin



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:13 am    Post subject: Re: how does your threeler follow pitch ? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:

Sounds about right. I get something like 1% error over 100 Hz to 2 kHz. The tracking depends on which mode is used and on the signal level also.

I measured the 5 oct tracking only with a cv input and nothing connected to the audio inputs...In a real life situation when I have audio coming in and I have carefully adjusted the settings, the tracking easily covers the entire tracking area of my JH Living VCOs which is about 6-7 octaves. I think that's excellent pitch tracking for a filter! Shocked
Quote:

Yeah, the filter's topology seems quite sensitive to OTA nonidealities. You might look at the oscillations with a scope and see if you can't get the same waveform by adjusting the resonance.


I had a look at the waveforms with my scope...wow! Countless different waveforms are possible with different settings!
And I can certainly get quite similar waveforms out of both Threeler's if the settings are close and the input signal is similar.
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, now you're getting it! You'll want to experiment with setting the input level fairly low and cranking up the resonance. That's where the wild stuff is.

Very Happy

Ian
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Argitoth



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I purchased a Threeler kit from Bridechamber and nearly finished stuffing the PCB (should resistor values before turning it on). I was on the verge of giving up on finishing this Threeler until I read all the rave about it here.

I read through the thread from page 5-7 and really don't understand how to follow the directions.

I have almost no ability to read a schematic and have only gotten by with wiring diagrams and images of stuff and wired PCBs from Dragonflyalley.com but I can't find Threeler build photos. Could anyone spell out how to wire the Threeler? Especially that round switch from Bridechamber.

It would help to follow a format such as:

<name> POT CW/Wiper/CCW / SOCKET Signal/Switching/Ground to <name> PCB


For example: Coarse Tune POT CW to Coarse F PCB

I also don't understand how to put in R36a/b. Also, for the 5-legged chip, which direction is the text supposed to face?
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bridechamber



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Q1/ Q2 are the matched pair, in this case the 2SA798. It can go in either direction, in the five pins. After that, put the tempco in R36a, leaving the legs long enough so that the resistor goes over the matched pair, so that you can pull it tight w/ some thermal compound between them, making a good physical connection.

Rotary switch:
Connect pins 1, 3, 7 and 8 together, and wire one of them to ground.
Connect pins 2, 4, 9 and 10 together, and wire one of them to +V.
Wire pin A to A0 on the PCB, and pin B to A1.

Coarse Tune:
With lugs hanging down, looking at pot from behind panel:
Left lug to +V, Middle lug to F pad, Right lug to -V.

Input:
Left lug to Input jack, middle to to In pad, right pad to ground.

Other pads on PCB are wired directly to jacks: V/Oct, RM (Res CV), FM (Freq CV), etc.

Hope that helps!
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Argitoth



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK!! So, I can ignore I can ignore 36b and I do not need those 3-legged transistors because I have that 5-legged transistor 2SA798. I'm guessing it doesn't matter whether the tempo is on top or tightly hugging a side of this component.

I think I'll be able to finish this in a sitting, thanks Mr Deyo.
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bridechamber



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Correct and correct Very Happy

Just make sure there is contact w/ a thermal compound between the tempco and matched pair.

Tell us what you think!
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Argitoth



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm going to wire this baby today. FINALLY got more wire (ran out, that's why I haven't been back to tell you what I think. As a matter of fact as soon as I verify this is working 100% im going to make an audio demo).

ONE QUESTION. How do I limit the switch positions on the switch?

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

Here's a more finalized panel. It's all ugly MS-paint right now, but I'm going to recreate it in Adobe Illustrator with dials and all of that goodness. I'll try to find a place that prints high quality stuff and then I'll glue the design to the panel. I'll be adding on a simple mixer for extra inputs, no attenuators.
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Argitoth



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think I have a problem with my Threeler VCF!... it seems to be working perfectly except that I thought it could do bandpass filtering. I thought one of the LP/HP was going to be bandpass or at least notch. When I turn the switch things seem to sound different. I think the first mode was the only mode that sounded 100% like a lowpass if I remember correctly. Keep in mind I only heard Output1 (gotta finish wiring it first).

I wired the rotary switch A --> A0 C --> A1 (B and D leads were cut off, is that a problem?) Also, 2--4--9--10 to V+ and 1--3--7--8 to ground.

Thank you! I'll have a full audio demo soon. What I can say right now is I won't be missing my MOTM-420 MS20 filter!!! Cool

Edit: figured it out, needed to use output 2 or 3 for bandpass.

Last edited by Argitoth on Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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