Basics - what is a good first keyboard? midi vs synth?

sparks007 · Joined: Dec 09, 2004 Posts: 4 Location: Australia

Hi Folks,

I'm new to the electronic music scene, and I'm hoping some of you folks may be able to give me some advice.

What would a good first choice be for a keyboard? I'm thinking a 49 -61 key instrument, not sure wether to get a midi keyboard or a synthesizer. I dont come from a musical background, more from an arts scene - I enjoy sculpting sounds and sonic environments and would like to have a chance to hands on play with some of the sounds I've made/captured. I dont think I'd want to use the keyboard for performances, I like the idea of creating sounds/soundscapes and dispersing them over the net.

From what I know so far midi keyboards would give me the hands on feel but i may be limited by not being able to use my own sounds, i know that there are things called software synthesizers but im not sure what they do. Do they allow me to play my own sounds with a midi keyboard? Will i be able to control the attack, sustain and decay of my sound through the press of a key? As long as there is someway i can play my sounds on a midi keyboard with it altering the pitch (by diff keys) and attack, sustain, decay through touch - I will probably get a midi - cause its cheaper and money is tight. If anyone knows of a way id be interested to know (cheap way)

I think I'll get a new keyboard cause i dont know what to look for in a second hand one. I'm trying to keep the $$$ down too.

P.S. The sounds I want to play are pre-recorded and usually in wav format - guess i can convert that to anything with the right conversion software...

Thanks in advance for reading this, any advice appreciated.

Sparks007

mosc · Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:58 pm Post subject:

Sparks, to our forum. Glad to have you here.

Since you aren't a musician, yet, and don't have strong biases, I think you should stick with software synthesizers and just get a Midi keyboard controller to control your software. I'm not a soft synth user myself, so I can't really advise you on this, but I'm sure some other people will have some good ideas. There are some good packages, like Reason and Cakewalk Project, that contain multiple soft synths that might make a good introduction to the different forms of sythesis.

Sounds like you are intersted in doing sampleing. Be sure to get something that offers that.

You don't have to spend a lot of money because you can get many synths for free.

sparks007 · Joined: Dec 09, 2004 Posts: 4 Location: Australia

Hi Mosc,

Thanks for the advice,
sounds like a midi keyboard and software synth that does sampling is what im after - thats good to know.

At this point I'm thinking about a "M-AUDIO RADIUM49" or a "EVOLUTION MK449C". Anyone think they are ok? I'm not sure what sort of features I should be looking for, what do you folks find important? Guess I should try google for info on choosing a midi keyboard...

Mohoyoho · Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 11:27 pm Post subject:

I've got the radium 61. It's ok. Nothing fantastic, but it gets the job done. Make sure whatever keyboard you get that it has a mod WHEEL and not a spring load lever (Rolands and their different brands). My first controller was a Roland. I like the keyboard action but hate that it doesn't have a conventional Mod Wheel. The keys on the Radium don't feel as good, but they work fine. The Radium is very good with soft synths that can assign controls to the keyboard. Ie. Reaktor.
What soft synth to get? There are some good ones. Depends on what kind of music you ae going to be making. Cakewalk Project 5 is supposed to be an excellent product for the money. I use primarily Reaktor and Absynth from Native Instruments. If you are wanting to learn the basics of making sounds with synths, Reaktor has a very stiff learning curve. The instruments that come with it are very unconventional, but very powerful. Absynth is much easier and teaches you quite a bit about sound design. It too has some great sounds and a big user base (like Reaktor). There are hundreds of free patches available.
A freebie I highly recommend is Crystal.
If you are using a PC then I think Project 5 might be your best bang for the buck. They offer several synths and rhythm machines. I think Cakewalk has excellent support and their products are excellent.
Good Luck, and let us know what you do.

jksuperstar · Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:19 am Post subject:

I agree with the softsynth, especially for somewhat who isn't sure about what they are after! There are hundreds of soft synths and samplers, many of which are free as was said. What you will most likely end up with is a VST Host (and program that supports VST plug-ins), and the VST plug-ins themselves. VST is a standard that alot of audio-software adheres to, so once you get a host running, you can plug and unplug VST instruments until you either find one you like, or learn enough to know where to look next. Believe me, doing this with hardware can be very time consuming and expensive!

Also, if you like "sound sculpting", you might consider a MIDI controller with lots of knobs, or a control surface like those made by behringer, etc. You can then use the knobs to control the software and make sweeping sounds that you can't typically do with just keys. This all takes patience, because you hae to assign knobs on your controller to the software synth, and some programs make this step far easier than others. Just try many of them, and be sure to check out some demos, too. And if you don't have a seperate MIDI I/O box for your PC, then make sure the keyboard you get be attached via USB.

As of recently, I like using Ableton Live as a VST host and MIDI/Audio recorder. So much so, that I am beginning to sell hardware over it. It comes with a built-in sampler and drum synth, but can host as many VST synths as you like. (So far, it has replaced my MPC1000 in my rig).

seraph · Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:49 am Post subject:

mosc · Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:59 am Post subject:

diskonext · Joined: Aug 26, 2004 Posts: 306 Location: London, UK

Yes,

Ableton Live + a load of VSTs will really get you going.

I can really recommend Live, I use it almost daily and it suits my needs perfectly. Perfect for both looping audio and midi.

Check out www.kvr-vst.com for lots of VSTs (free/shareware/donationware/payware) and VST hosts.

For MIDI controller I can recommend the Behringer BCR and BCF range, especially the BCR. I have a Evolution (=m-audio) keyboard which I'm more or less happy with. The newer models should be more full-featured.

-diskonext

seraph · Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:24 am Post subject:

egw · Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:43 am Post subject:

Those keyboards you mention would be fine. I agree with Moho about the mod wheel. Knobs on the keyboard also is important for working with softsynths. Stick with freeware until you get a better idea of exactly what you want to do.

Mohoyoho · Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:50 am Post subject:

mosc · Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:06 pm Post subject:

If money is really tight, then consider Audacity, a free program that accepts VSTs, It's a bit limited right now, but it'll get you started.

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-3334.html
http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-1625.html

sparks007 · Joined: Dec 09, 2004 Posts: 4 Location: Australia

Wow

,

thanks folks for all your input.

Hmmm, I'd like a 61 key instrument but size and money may limit me to a 49 key. Ive heard people talk about Cakewalk project before... I'll have to check it out, and I'll have a look at Reaktor too. Crystal sounds like a good starting point - maybe i'll start there. Had a quick look at Albeton Live - sounds good, excellent even - unfortunately my budget doesnt stretch that far for now - so ill have to find sound cheap and freebees maybe just to get started.

hmmm
www.kvr-vst.com
took me to
http://www.kvraudio.com/

Looks like its got some good stuff though. I dont really understand what you mean by a VST host - I'll look into that too.

I've seen a bit of Reason before - yeah it looks good.

Mosc - audacity looks a lot like sound forge - mainly just a wave editor with eq and some effects - think i might be ok with sound forge for now. But really appreciate you letting me know, good to know about good freebees/shareware.

Right now my setup is a Minidisc for recording, i use dynamic and shotgun mics to get sounds. Sound forge to digitiize and clean up recordings. ProTools Free for multitrack and layering sounds. I enjoy mucking around with sounds but am fed up with cut and pasting things. So thats where the keyboard comes in. I'm on a PC using win 98 - just so I can keep using ProTools Free - there is bound to be other options out there for multitrack editing and realtime playback and recording new tracks at the same time - guess thats where cakewalk etc come in - wonder if you folks know of any cheap/freeware/shareware options in this area?

Like the idea of a full on package - but may need to stick with shareware and freeware for the time being.

Just read that Audacity accepts VSTs - I'm not too sure what that means right now, but guess its good from what I've heard so far.

I've also got Cubasis VST - havent used it much so far, guess that the 'VST' is related to these plugins you folks mention - hmmm something else to learn about - Cool Cool

So much to learn - good to have some pointers - thanks again for the advice Very Happy

Daveojo · Joined: Dec 05, 2004 Posts: 9 Location: Dublin, Ire

Neither.

I never advise people to get midi keyboards because I think that they are a rip off.
Instead buy a cheap digital synth with nice keys and midi. (The ensoniq esq-1 being the perfect example.)

This way you get the best of both worlds.

The actual hardware synth will be better for learning the ins and outs of synthesis, while at the same time you still get the flexibility of having midi so have hundreds of vsts at your fingertips.

Why buy a keyboard with no sounds when for slightly more you can buy something used that you can actually play independantly, and in a more hands-on fashion.

zynthetix · Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:25 pm Post subject:

I'm kind of at a loss to vote on your poll and specifically recommend a certain peice of gear....it really depends on what you want to do. You mention you want to make your own sounds...if you want to use a synth to modify audio recordings you may have made, then you're interested in sampling and I'd have to reccomend trying some software-synths first. If that is not what you meant and you'd like to make pure electronic "analog synth" sounds, I guess I'd also recommend using a softsynths/vst plugins to get a taste.

Daveojo made a good point about the MIDI keyboards/controllers....If you can find a decent MIDI keyboard synth, like an Alesis Quadrasynth or a newer Ensoniq, it might cost as much as a MIDI controller. Getting the keyboard over the controller COULD be better...you can still use the keyboard as a controller, and you will have a decent digital synth to toy with as well (but more could be learned from the soft synths.) However, I'd only go this route if the price is right and the MIDI keyboard has at least 4 or more knobs/faders. (more is better...these will be needed for the soft-synths.)

sparks007 · Joined: Dec 09, 2004 Posts: 4 Location: Australia

Hi again folks,

thanks for your input - thought i'd let you know what happened...

I ended up getting an evolution 49 keyboard (MK-449C), its a (USB) midi controller keyboard that does not have any of its own sounds which is fine with me because i only want to use it to control and trigger sounds stored on my computer (I dont intend on using the keyboard for performance just composing stuff). One of the reasons i chose this keyboard is because it feels good to play with, it fit my budget, its big enough for me and its also got lots of midi assignable knob, sliders and buttons. Another bonus is it comes with some software which seems pretty good to me - remember i am a newbie though to all this. It has a VST sequencer called sound studio II which can be upgraded to sound studio II pro - just in case you are interested.

It didnt come with a sampler as far as i know, so im hunting around for something to use - maybe a bit more saving required because kontakt and kompakt look good. Its a big learning curve but an enjoyable one!

Anyway thanks for your input and happy new year!

mosc · Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:53 pm Post subject:

Sounds like you made some wise choices. Have fun...