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THeff
Joined: Sep 01, 2006 Posts: 229 Location: Florida
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Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:35 pm Post subject:
Dual Purpose Klee Subject description: Make the Klee Sequencer a standard seq and Klee seq as well. |
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Hello all,
This is my first post on Electo-Music but I have been following it for quite a while. I am in the process of building up a Klee and I am toying with the idea of breaking the 16 bit connection between the output of the shift registers and the 16 bit bus and placing a 2 channel 16 bit multiplexer (4- mc14551 ICs) there. This will allow me to switch between Klee function or standard sequence functionality. The 1st position of the multiplexer would connect to the shift registers as usual and the 2nd position of the multiplexer could connect to a typical CD4514 1x16 decoder or PIC microcontroller for normal step sequencing. Any thoughts on this idea?
Tim |
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fonik
Joined: Jun 07, 2006 Posts: 3950 Location: Germany
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Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:56 pm Post subject:
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i'd thought with just only the first bit active the KLEE would already work as a standard sequencer? so the actual benefit of your method would be the ability to switch both modes with just one switch. could be nice, i think. i wonder if it would be worth the efforts, though. _________________
cheers,
matthias
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Big Boss at fonitronik
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fonik
Joined: Jun 07, 2006 Posts: 3950 Location: Germany
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Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:58 pm Post subject:
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oh, tim, i forgot:
nice to have you here.
_________________
cheers,
matthias
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Big Boss at fonitronik
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THeff
Joined: Sep 01, 2006 Posts: 229 Location: Florida
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:18 am Post subject:
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thanks for the welcome Matthias!
I believe you right, with only 1 bit set, it would "walk" across the shift registers like a normal seq. I guess I had in mind to drive the 4 inputs of the CD4514 1x16 decoder with a small PIC. I could then easily go back/forth, set number of steps, preset arpeggios, etc. I have built several sequencers in the past (and bought a lot of pots and switches) and thought I could use the Klee as a universal test bed for future ideas, especially since the Klee has the nice octave and semi switching. With the pots, summing amps, and LEDs, always attached to the bus, I could simply plug in a 16 bit ribbon cable to the 2nd position of the multiplexer and give it a test.
BTW Matthias, I have built the PS3100 resonator, Wasp clone, and UD-A Drum, using your PCB designs and they all work great! Thanks for sharing your designs!!!
Tim |
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Scott Stites
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Joined: Dec 23, 2005 Posts: 4127 Location: Mount Hope, KS USA
Audio files: 96
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:47 am Post subject:
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Tim
That's not a bad idea at all. Actually, I had some grand plans for a Model 3 Klee that would do something along those lines. As it was, I finally concluded the Model 2 (later the electro-music Klee) was just about "there" as far as how much people would want to fill a panel and PCB board. Your approach would be more economical.
As I mentioned, one idea was along the lines of yours, only I'd planned to implement it with CD4019s (of which I've got a buttload at home still unused).
The idea consisted of adding another row of 16 pots. Each row of pots would have a selector switch - Klee pattern or "normal" one bit sequencer. The gate bus would also have this selector switch. With that method, one could switch any row of pots and the Gate Bus to process either the Klee pattern or the normal 1 bit sequencer.
The one bit sequencer would have had a separate clock and reset circuit, normalled to the Klee clock. For a random function using the "normal" sequencer, I'd planned on using certain bits of the Klee pattern to address CD4516 counters, and the counters themselves could be switched to count up or down or load from the Klee pattern with each clock pulse.
There are a zillion directions one can go with sequencers, shift registers and CMOS. The electro-music Klee is just one little corner of a nearly infinite universe of Lunetta devices (when you get a chance, search the term Lunetta on the forum, Howard's got some interesting posts on the subject).
Cheers,
Scott
Edit: Howard = Mosc, or fearless leader. _________________ My Site |
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THeff
Joined: Sep 01, 2006 Posts: 229 Location: Florida
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:42 am Post subject:
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hi Scott,
I have not committed to the mutiplexer idea yet, but I am going to at least run the shift register outputs to a pin header and the bus to another pin header. The header will also include GND, +15V, and Clock so that I can still use the Klee single-step, and clock in from the front panel. I can then just manually connect the Klee or some other sequence driver. After noticing that the common section on all sequencers is the 8-32 pots, gate switches, and step LEDs, and growing a little weary of wiring these, I decided to go with a universal approach this time. I have attached a low res picture of my progress thus far. My forum and typing skills are very marginal so hopefully the attachment works right. I have been lurking in the shadows quietly building stuff and reading the forums and I thought it was time to participate. I owe you thanks as well for encouraging me to build a Dim-C and other things from your great web sights!
Tim
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Last edited by THeff on Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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fonik
Joined: Jun 07, 2006 Posts: 3950 Location: Germany
Audio files: 23
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:43 am Post subject:
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a klee, a klee! i can see a klee - and what a wonderful 3U panel! i like it a lot!
and the ideas that come up in this thread will encourage me to keep a 1U spare in the rack-enclosure for the forthcoming "versatile multi klee controller" _________________
cheers,
matthias
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Big Boss at fonitronik
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Scott Stites
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Joined: Dec 23, 2005 Posts: 4127 Location: Mount Hope, KS USA
Audio files: 96
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:24 am Post subject:
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Holy cow!!! Fantastic!! You're the only other person I'm aware of that's attempted this! If you run into any issues building it, let me know - I've still got the original on breadboard.
That panel is beautiful.
Awesome.....
Scott _________________ My Site |
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THeff
Joined: Sep 01, 2006 Posts: 229 Location: Florida
Audio files: 33
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THeff
Joined: Sep 01, 2006 Posts: 229 Location: Florida
Audio files: 33
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:19 pm Post subject:
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I guess the Autocad drawing attachment did not make it, so here it is again. I tried to export the drawing as a jpeg and BMP but they looked terrible. If someone wants a different format like .dxf, let me know.
Tim |
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Scott Stites
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Joined: Dec 23, 2005 Posts: 4127 Location: Mount Hope, KS USA
Audio files: 96
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:28 pm Post subject:
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That is really sweet. How did you color it and do the graphics, etc? _________________ My Site |
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goodrevdoc
Joined: Sep 11, 2006 Posts: 288 Location: Philadelphia, PA
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:36 pm Post subject:
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A Klee! Great work Tim!
-jsutin |
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sneakthief
Joined: Jul 24, 2006 Posts: 569 Location: Berlin
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:18 am Post subject:
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nice work! the Blacet typeface looks great on that panel _________________ Sneak-Thief - raw electrofunk |
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bugbrand
Joined: Nov 27, 2005 Posts: 846 Location: Bristol, UK
Audio files: 1
G2 patch files: 1
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mono-poly
Joined: Jul 07, 2004 Posts: 937 Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:28 am Post subject:
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I really like your layout! |
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THeff
Joined: Sep 01, 2006 Posts: 229 Location: Florida
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:18 am Post subject:
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Thanks guys! I used ID-Mark for the front panel graphics. It is .007" aluminum, that is photo sensitized for positive artwork and self adhesive. It comes in 12"x20" sheets and in different colors. I have used the black and the blue. I create the artwork with overhead transparencies in a laser printer. The exposure requires UV light and 2' fluorescent lights from Home Depot work well. To develop it after exposure you use water believe it or not. It's a little tricky to figure out at first but I have done over 40 3.5" x 9" modules for my synth using ID-Mark in black.
Here's the link:
http://www.horizonsisg.com/products/idmark.asp
Oh, the cost is $126.00 for 5ea. 12"x20" sheets. I think it works out to be about $4 for a "3.5 x 9" panel. The stock number is 8700 for black and 8705 for blue. They have a PDF price list showing all of the details on their web sight. I can send a picture of the synth showing these panels if anyone wants. BTW does anyone know why I could not attach the .dwg drawing file to my last post?
Tim |
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elektro80
Site Admin
Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:20 am Post subject:
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I don¨t think we have allowed those extensions. Try zipping it? _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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THeff
Joined: Sep 01, 2006 Posts: 229 Location: Florida
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Scott Stites
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Joined: Dec 23, 2005 Posts: 4127 Location: Mount Hope, KS USA
Audio files: 96
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:24 am Post subject:
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Nope, no invert B switch, because that came along with the electro-music version and it wasn't really discussed in the Klee thread. Not that it's any big secret or anything, or difficult to implement. I didn't bring it up to Tim, because the panel is already done. I'd hate to go adding stuff to that beautiful panel meself.
If you'd like, Tim I could show you where we planted it (you could probably figure out pretty quickly). It adds two resistors and, of course, the panel switch.
Cheers,
Scott _________________ My Site |
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THeff
Joined: Sep 01, 2006 Posts: 229 Location: Florida
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THeff
Joined: Sep 01, 2006 Posts: 229 Location: Florida
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:34 pm Post subject:
Invert B switch mod. |
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Scott, I forgot to mention that I would be interested in the details of the Invert B modification, once I get all the details corrected here.
Kleefully,
Tim |
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mono-poly
Joined: Jul 07, 2004 Posts: 937 Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:48 am Post subject:
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Woow this looks so nice! |
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Scott Stites
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Joined: Dec 23, 2005 Posts: 4127 Location: Mount Hope, KS USA
Audio files: 96
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Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:09 am Post subject:
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Hey Tim,
Quote: | Anyway pin 12 and 13 on all of the TL074 opamps is incorrect. |
Sorry about that - that was one thing we had to shake out of the schematics when Andy was doing the PCB. In the original, I had to manipulate the symbols a bit in Express PCB, and screwed up the pin numbers. At the time, I never got back to rev the posted schematics. I'll fix that before they're re-uploaded.
Quote: | I am also getting intermittent key bounce on the load and clock switches. I will probably just have to tweak the time constants in those circuits. |
How often does this happen? That's something we'll need to nail down in the protobuild if we encounter it. I don't get any intermittency on the breadboard testing "worst case" switch selection (anything from knocking two wires together to a raspy foothswitch). But between breadboard and actual panel mounted stuff there could be a difference. What type of capacitors did you use there (mylar, ceramic)? I'll be interested to know what values you arrive at.
That's some serious work you've put into that build! Amazing, indeed!
Here are the portions from the EM Klee schematics that cover Invert B function. We just put the unused section of U4 to work. The switch either takes the output of the inverter or bypasses the inverter.
Did you build a Dim C?
Cheers,
Scott
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THeff
Joined: Sep 01, 2006 Posts: 229 Location: Florida
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Scott Stites
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Joined: Dec 23, 2005 Posts: 4127 Location: Mount Hope, KS USA
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Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:15 pm Post subject:
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Quote: | I want to make sure it is Klocking, Kloading, Klstepping, and Kloutputting the right stuff! |
This is amazing - I never suspected another Klee out there existed beyond my breadboard. In fact, your Model 2 is the only built Klee in existence, that I know of (besides some Model 1's, which aren't nearly as extensive as this version). I am astounded. In fact, I may have to tap you as the "fifth column" during our proto-testing, if you don't mind.
Anyway - I lied. I never did "worst case" testing. The absolute worst case of any switch testing would be those momentary switches from Jameco. Those things are awful - I've got a ton of them, and I've never found them good for much of anything.
So, I pulled one out of the cobwebs and strapped it to the Klee board. You can imagine the hair standing up on the back of my neck as this thing hopped and skipped around. Sometimes I'd press it repeatedly and nothing would happen. Sometimes it would step just fine, then stop, then double trigger. I was pretty waylaid by the experience. Then, I started thinking - why wouldn't it trigger if I pressed it repeatedly? There was no electrical reason why, circuit-wise. So, I clipped on the DMM leads and watched it. What a crap switch - sometimes, no matter how I pressed it, it would not close - and sometimes it stuck closed!
So, I grabbed one of the switches I purchased for the Klee panel. These are Mountain switches I got from Mouser. Not overly expensive - $2.50 apiece or something like that. I got largish ones. I soldered a couple of leads to it, put in the breadboard, and it operated absolutely perfectly. I could punch it as fast as I wanted or as slow as I wanted, and it never missed a beat or stuttered. So, lame as it may sound, don't rule out the switches. I know debouncing is supposed to accomodate a particular switch, but I don't think there's anything that would accomodate these Jameco pieces of #$%@. I've used a footswitch and another toggle switch I have around here before with no problems. Normally I just bat the exposed end of a ground wire to the wire tied to the pull up resistor - that even works pretty well. I have small decent momentary switches around here somewhere that I ought to dig up and try.
Nice Dim C! Ain't those things the deal? Germaniac and I have a running joke about how a snow (or leaf blower, in the case of California-based Germaniac) can sound good processed through one.
Take care,
Scott _________________ My Site |
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