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iPassenger

Joined: Jan 27, 2007 Posts: 1068 Location: Sheffield, UK
Audio files: 5
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Fozzie

Joined: Jun 04, 2004 Posts: 875 Location: Near Wageningen, the Netherlands
Audio files: 8
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Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:06 am Post subject:
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3phase wrote: | only a port for the dsp expansion... maybe it would be possible to have an alternate expansion board? |
Well, yes, that is the idea of course. _________________ Spinning at ~0.0000115740740741 Hz |
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ian-s

Joined: Apr 01, 2004 Posts: 2672 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:19 pm Post subject:
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dorremifasol wrote: | I don't expect that the flash ram already installed in the G2 to be fast enough to use it as a sound source, specially considering that you may need to do some supersampling (to avoid aliasing) and multiple addressing.
Perhaps the flash transfer speed is the reason for not having more than 2 slots in the nord wave... |
The flash is just for storage. On patch load it would go into the same RAM used for delays. One option would be to optionally use the old 8bit companding format (like the early digital drum machines and emulators) to allow 5.4 sec per area.
It's not going to be like a modern sampler, loops would probably not be an option. But it would provide rather a lot of options I think. |
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ian-s

Joined: Apr 01, 2004 Posts: 2672 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Audio files: 42
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Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:29 pm Post subject:
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iPassenger wrote: | 3phase, u sure mean 512MB?
R. |
No, it had 484K for sampling, up to 17.5 sec at 27.5Khz 8 bits
The 8 bits don't sound so bad because it uses a special weighted DAC that provided results similar to 12Bit (I think, my memory might be wrong) |
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jksuperstar

Joined: Aug 20, 2004 Posts: 2503 Location: Denver
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Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:00 pm Post subject:
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And for wavetables, typical tables are only 128samples x 128 waves deep (or 32KB for 16bit samples), that's tiny compared to the 4MB for each DSP now. And also a good portion of the wavetables are fixed ("standard" waveforms), so the burden on the flash is even less.
For sampling, it's dead easy - just "pre-charge" a sampler/delay module (already existing) with data from the flash/patch, rather than overwriting the RAM with zero as is done now.
Although, ideally, I'd like to see a 2-part module: 1 sample module holds/loads the sample, while multiple pointer modules can reference the sample in that module (ie- seperate read/write pointers for each pointer module...allows basic sampling, complex pitch-shift algorythms, wavetables, and even grainular synthesis!). This would not be difficult or mind-blowing to implement. Then there could be a basic limit of 16 (or similar) sample modules per patch, limiting the complexity of what pointer modules are actually pointing at. |
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v-un-v
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8932 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
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Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:07 pm Post subject:
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I would have thought that it would be highly unlikely that Clavia will put sampling in the G2. It makes no business sense to do that.
However, I would imagine that a brand new G3 is more likely to come next or sometime in the future. I'm sure that Clavia are fully aware of how much this desire for sampling is. The Nord Wave I think is perhaps the beginning of this new technology. and Clavia need a more 'vanilla' (although calling it vanilla is a bit below the belt) product before they release another modular type product.
I love Clavia They get us all speculating and then blow us all out of the water by producing a dynamite product that isn't quite what we were hoping for, but almost perfectly wonderful as it is
I wonder if they worked in the automobile industry beforehand?  _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
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cappy2112

Joined: Dec 24, 2004 Posts: 2498 Location: San Jose, California
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Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:20 pm Post subject:
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v-un-v wrote: |
However, I would imagine that a brand new G3 is more likely to come next or sometime in the future. I'm sure that Clavia are fully aware of how much this desire for sampling is |
Does Clavia have enough manpower to do anything more on the G2 (or even start work on a G3)? The G2 probably doesn' t generate much revenue any more. They now have 3 new products to maintain, which hopefully will be big money makers for them. |
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v-un-v
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8932 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
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Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:27 pm Post subject:
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cappy2112 wrote: | The G2 probably doesn' t generate much revenue any more. |
exactly  _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
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GovernorSilver

Joined: Apr 26, 2004 Posts: 1349 Location: Washington DC Metro
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Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:03 pm Post subject:
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I still don't understand the demand for "adding sampling" to the G2. What does this mean, really? You want to make the G2 a sample-playback machine? |
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jksuperstar

Joined: Aug 20, 2004 Posts: 2503 Location: Denver
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Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:28 pm Post subject:
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Not just "sample playback", but having oscillators that can do things that the current oscillator set can't do. Which can mean new forms of synthesis (rather than based solely on analog modeling), and in other cases can mean improvements in DSP used in current algorithms.
I know, Clavia's thing has almost always been "virtual analog", but with the new wave keyboard, maybe they are recognizing the digital forms of synthesis that haven't had an analog counterpart as well. Having these things in the G2 may also help themselves, to develop better algorithms for their other synths. I've heard rumors before this was how/why the original NM1 was conceived. |
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v-un-v
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8932 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
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Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:51 pm Post subject:
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jksuperstar wrote: | I've heard rumors before this was how/why the original NM1 was conceived. |
Spot on. In fact the NM1- or more to the point, a pile of circuit boards that was used to prototype early Clavia products, was conceived because someone suggested to Mr Nord "Why don't you put that thing in a box and market it, and thus the NordModular was born. It makes perfect sense that Clavia would use the G2 (or circuit board equivalent) to prototype the Wave.
Unfortunately though, Clavia are only a 'small' company (by today's Japanese standards), and I don't think a G3 would be on the horizon for at least another couple of years. Like cappy2112 quite rightly points out (I'm guessing here too), Clavia simply don't have the resources to turn around a G3 so quickly.
You must beware that both the NM and G2 have been 2 wildly remarkable machines (especially the NM1), because they have created such a wonderful community, from their beauty of being able to share patches (txt files too!). Although OTOH, thank christ that most of us are up to broadband status, because sending a pch3 file including a sample (or many) could turn out to be one logistical nightmare!
From what I gather from Spanky's youtoob post, The Wave is absolutely lovely and is going to provide hours of fun for many people. I'm very much looking forward to playing with it  _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
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blue hell
Site Admin

Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24488 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 298
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Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject:
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v-un-v wrote: | Although OTOH, thank christ that most of us are up to broadband status, because sending a pch3 file including a sample (or many) could turn out to be one logistical nightmare! :shock:
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Which is an issue for that new wave thingy as well BTW, either the patch goes without the samples and it makes no sense (if the samples are used of course) or the samples are in and the patch is huge. Clavia didn't know yet how to handle that. _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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dasz

Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1644 Location: victoria, canada
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Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:12 pm Post subject:
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jan, got any pics from the messe for us?
/Dasz |
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blue hell
Site Admin

Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24488 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 298
G2 patch files: 320
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Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:21 pm Post subject:
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dasz wrote: | jan, got any pics from the messe for us?
/Dasz |
camera failed, that is batteries were charged when I left home and empty on the messe, bought new ones. _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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dasz

Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1644 Location: victoria, canada
Audio files: 29
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Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject:
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cappy2112 wrote: |
Does Clavia have enough manpower to do anything more on the G2 (or even start work on a G3)? The G2 probably doesn't generate much revenue any more. They now have 3 new products to maintain, which hopefully will be big money makers for them. |
I think that is an accurate statement. The G2's development cost vs the market size, is inverse. I think the 3 new products may be easier to maintain (since they are hard-wired systems for big markets), so my hunch Clavia is using this to balance the product line out (many easy to maintain vs some hard to maintain) to make everyone happy.
Just my guess and hope, not substantiated by any facts.
/Dasz
ps.: cappy, I am sorry I have not done what you asked for. Still too much travel on weekly basis. |
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GovernorSilver

Joined: Apr 26, 2004 Posts: 1349 Location: Washington DC Metro
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Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:39 pm Post subject:
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jksuperstar wrote: | Not just "sample playback", but having oscillators that can do things that the current oscillator set can't do. Which can mean new forms of synthesis (rather than based solely on analog modeling), and in other cases can mean improvements in DSP used in current algorithms.
I know, Clavia's thing has almost always been "virtual analog", but with the new wave keyboard, maybe they are recognizing the digital forms of synthesis that haven't had an analog counterpart as well. Having these things in the G2 may also help themselves, to develop better algorithms for their other synths. I've heard rumors before this was how/why the original NM1 was conceived. |
I admit I have yet to grasp the full implication of having an oscillator that plays a sampled waveform instead of triangle/square/sine/etc. waves. This is probably colored by what I have heard out of ROMplers - for example, a shakuhachi patch is pretty much a sampled shakuhachi waveform being played by an oscillator, with an envelope applied and maybe some filtering. So when I think "sample-playback" I think of simplistic emulative synthesis in this manner.
The user community on this forum made me stop thinking of the Nord Modulars (original and G2) as "virtual analog" quite a while ago, actually. I think of them now as Max/MSP-in-red-boxes or Kymas-for-the-masses, with good design decisions as to what aspects of those other products to include in the final products, that would be usable to a wide variety of users.
I read somewhere the Nord Wave actually does resynthesis on samples that you import into it. Intriguing, if true. |
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NoiseLab

Joined: Mar 02, 2005 Posts: 68 Location: Zandvoort, the Netherlands
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:41 am Post subject:
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The main thing that I don't have a G2 is... That it's replicating what analog already can do (and better IMHO). With Kyma you can doing stuff that analogs cannot do! This is where Kyma excels! Last edited by NoiseLab on Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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G2DREAM

Joined: Apr 27, 2005 Posts: 171 Location: Athens,Greece
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:07 am Post subject:
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NoiseLab wrote: | With Kyma you can doing stuff that analogs cannot do! |
I was thinking exactly the same for the G2, even for my Micromodular!
_____________
cyber-evolution |
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v-un-v
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8932 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:45 am Post subject:
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NoiseLab wrote: | With Kyma you can doing stuff that analogs cannot do! This is where Kyma excels! |
Yeah and where the G2 excels, is that it is a darn sight cheaper than Kyma!  _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
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Kassen
Janitor


Joined: Jul 06, 2004 Posts: 7678 Location: The Hague, NL
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:38 am Post subject:
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_ Steve _ wrote: | I think secretly.. yes I am hoping the Wave would have some kind of granular approach But with Clavia's recent focus on 'stage' instruments I don't feel so positive about them these days. Happy to be proven wrong. |
I don't see how those would be opposed to eachother. For example; Ableton Live is a stage instrument and it aproaches all problemns in sight in a granular manner. Grains would be a smart move because with grains you get rid of many of the problems of looping. Of cource that comes at the price of a slightly "chorusy"and ünison"like sound buit that seems to be exactly what's hip today and where Clavia is going. _________________ Kassen |
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Wout Blommers

Joined: Sep 07, 2003 Posts: 4529 Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:08 am Post subject:
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v-un-v wrote: | Spot on. In fact the NM1- or more to the point, a pile of circuit boards that was used to prototype early Clavia products, was conceived because someone suggested to Mr Nord "Why don't you put that thing in a box and market it, and thus the NordModular was born. It makes perfect sense that Clavia would use the G2 (or circuit board equivalent) to prototype the Wave. |
That's always the trouble with spotlights: they lighten always a small part of the subject
Indeed, the Classic was intentional designed as a 'company alone' instrument, but the concept was made a long time before by two of their software designers, to be precise during their holiday in India. Once we were lucky to see the alpha Editor, using vertical modules like the Moogs and no colours at all. Anyway, the electronics were already in the box before outsiders suggested to market the synth.
Wout |
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v-un-v
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8932 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:52 am Post subject:
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Wout Blommers wrote: |
That's always the trouble with spotlights: they lighten always a small part of the subject
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Wout, if you have the time to go into the nitty-gritty, then be my guest  _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
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GovernorSilver

Joined: Apr 26, 2004 Posts: 1349 Location: Washington DC Metro
G2 patch files: 1
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:02 am Post subject:
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NoiseLab wrote: | The main thing that I don't have a G2 is... That it's replicating what analog already can do (and better IMHO). With Kyma you can doing stuff that analogs cannot do! This is where Kyma excels! |
I used to think of the Nord Modulars like that. But after encountering patches that do Motion Detection, Elastic Audio, DX-style synthesis, granular synthesis, physical modeling, etc. I can't think of the G2 as "virtual analog" anymore. |
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Wout Blommers

Joined: Sep 07, 2003 Posts: 4529 Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:32 pm Post subject:
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v-un-v wrote: | ... nitty-gritty ... |
Well, what does that mean?
I'm not a native speaker...
Wout |
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Wout Blommers

Joined: Sep 07, 2003 Posts: 4529 Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
Audio files: 123
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:33 pm Post subject:
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GovernorSilver wrote: | ... But after encountering patches that do Motion Detection, Elastic Audio, DX-style synthesis, granular synthesis, physical modeling, etc. I can't think of the G2 as "virtual analog" anymore. |
Indeed, I never heard a real analogue doing a coo-coo clock, which runs on time!
Wout |
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