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Roland Kuit
Joined: Sep 29, 2003
Posts: 1090
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 Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:03 am Post subject:
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I'm more than happy with my NM+G2. I agree with Kassen. Begging doens't help.
Look at some softsynth some developers bring out. Some are in a state that I think, are you nuts? Lots of bad written software, crappy sound, etc.
Clavia did a splendid job.
Okay, I have some modules on my wish list, but mostly I can build them
myself on the G2. See it as a challange. |
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dasz
Joined: Oct 16, 2004
Posts: 1644
Location: victoria, canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:27 am Post subject:
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But a lawsuit (or legaleeze) might even kill a company. this has happened in the past - ex Hartmann.
There are already too few synth makers in the world.
/Dasz |
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Kassen
Janitor
Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 7678
Location: The Hague, NL
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:26 pm Post subject:
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| dasz wrote: | But a lawsuit (or legaleeze) might even kill a company. this has happened in the past - ex Hartmann.
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Yeah, I said that before.
What Clavia did isn't cool, I think it's unethical, really, and while while they did create a impressive product there were also some unfortunate shortcuts taken like the G2 inheriting the NM's zero-page limit, the delay mess and so on.
Really no reason to put somebody out of business over but I also think people are very right to be very critical over this. The software Roland rightly complains about could only be brought about in a environment where people are insufficiently critical over what their money gets them. Marketing is a factor, not in the last place this tendency for companies to make up weird names for slight variations in algorithms and claiming to have invented burning water, thus trying to keep people out of what happens under the hood.
Putting companies out of business will make matters worse but not being critical towards what one can get might be even worse.
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3phase
Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1189
Location: Berlin
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:02 pm Post subject:
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Its a pitty that clavia havent evaluated the needs of the synth useres a bit better before launching the G2.. would have had a bit better start with more seq options in my opinion... such an instrument is rather something for modern electronic dance styles than for the classic rock-pop synth player..
and the real modular enthusiasts go earlier or later analog.. the benefit of the G2 is its performance factor and that is on the sequnecer side less developed than on a 23 years old 303...
its however a very usefull instrument for me... and i might be willing to go for a g3 one day..but only if its perfect from the start..it seems that clavia cant afford updating anymore...
Probably they think that the techno thing is over..it looks like it in the moment...but thats probably just temporarily...
It might look a bit deserted in the rest of the world because everybody is moving to berlin  |
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General Elektrick
Joined: Apr 06, 2004
Posts: 254
Location: Berlin/Germany
Audio files: 1
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject:
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Ah that hurts 
Been away from the forum for a while just to find bad news here.
I need to say it here:
Clavia sucks!
Second time they let us down on the editors, classic and G2.
I would not buy any further products from them (have classic, micro and G2) if they would not make at least a 2.0 with bugfixes, new modules from the wishlist and all required driver updates.
Max up your wishes, yes I want new modules and all!
Grrr 
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General Elektrick
"If something is boring after two minutes, try it for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen. Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it is not boring at all." --John Cage. |
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dorremifasol
Joined: Sep 28, 2006
Posts: 823
Location: Barcelona, Spain
Audio files: 7
G2 patch files: 49
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:28 pm Post subject:
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Never buy something for what it could be or it's promised to be, just buy it for what it is when you buy it. Is that simple.
I'm happy enough with the G2 even if it could be better. Every machine I have in my studio could be better with an O.S. upgrade. So what?
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Albert |
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Kassen
Janitor
Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 7678
Location: The Hague, NL
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject:
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3Phase; you made me smile.
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Kassen |
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General Elektrick
Joined: Apr 06, 2004
Posts: 254
Location: Berlin/Germany
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:43 pm Post subject:
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| dorremifasol wrote: | Never buy something for what it could be or it's promised to be, just buy it for what it is when you buy it. Is that simple.
I'm happy enough with the G2 even if it could be better. Every machine I have in my studio could be better with an O.S. upgrade. So what? |
Yeah, sure you are right, I am mostly your opinion and love my nords a lot and still can learn plenty about sythesis as they are but it was the first wave of anger after reading the bad news about the OS update that made me write my mail.
And I would agree with 3phase about buying a future g3...
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Best,
General Elektrick
"If something is boring after two minutes, try it for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen. Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it is not boring at all." --John Cage. |
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Kassen
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Joined: Jul 06, 2004
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Location: The Hague, NL
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject:
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I would argue that to some degree all instruments are bought not for what they are but for what they can be. It takes some time to get to know a instrument, this can take a long time, easily a decade. Typically this is a growth not of the instrument itself but of the musician but a instrument needs to facilitate this. If you don believe me go to a music school and listen to their first-year students, then get a CD by a world-class performance playing a violin or a piano.
The G2 is a highly complicated instrument, many of it's owners could study it for a lifetime and still keep growing and in the past Clavia has marketed their electronic instruments with slogans aimed at that exact process and sentiment.
In some respects I think Clavia takes their instruments less seriously then their users do. To me that's a bit sad. You could say Clavia is short changing some users but you could also say they are short-changing themselves.
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dorremifasol
Joined: Sep 28, 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject:
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I absolutely agree with you, Kassen. I was referring only to the instrument specifications. 
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XpanderXT
Joined: Oct 22, 2007
Posts: 137
Location: the flat universe
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:36 pm Post subject:
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| Kassen wrote: | | Yeah. I think that it's possible that people could sue Clavia for not delivering what was promised but it doesn't matter as I don't think anybody has money or the time to spare for that and it's not clear Clavia could deliver if they wanted to so it doesn't matter that much, to me. |
You can try to sue for most things but I doubt they promised how many updates or how long they would update it for and if those updates only covered some bug fixes or new features. It would likely lose in court, waste a bunch of money, possibly force the company out of business and make some lawyer richer.
I think your statement that they 'might not be able to deliver...' could be closer to the real issue. They are a small company in a small industry that is losing money to software rapidly. They are not in the large chain music stores like Guitar Center and Sam Ash ( they will do one off orders but won't stock the full line in all stores) so that cuts them out of a huge market. The electro is fairly popular but the expensive synth market is dead and only tiny companies with extremely low overhead like Dave Smith can do much to survive in that area. They just released a new product so they probably are cash and available personnel low at this time.
I hope they can manage to do updates because I really want a G2 ( I really wanted a G2X but I guess I waited to long). The Wave doesn't really interest me much and is really pricey. |
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gomidas
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Posts: 365
Location: La Ciotat, France
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:20 am Post subject:
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| XpanderXT wrote: | | They are a small company... |
, can somebody comfirm that? I see Clavia RED synths everywere on TV...
Just to refer to my previous  post, I am not hiding MY LACK OF KNOWLEDGE behind an eventual(DREAM!) os update, as a fact my PATCHING SKILL IS VERY POOR. Yes, a lifetime will be required for ME to LEARN all the secrets of a Modular, and that is why I was asking for support.
A macro/contextual menu with Building Blocks for example will have help me to learn FASTER...Come on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a big deal!!!!! oops, I am wishlisting again  SHAME ON ME...sorry 
...and NOW let's go back to WORK  |
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Kassen
Janitor
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:30 am Post subject:
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| XpanderXT wrote: |
You can try to sue for most things but I doubt they promised how many updates or how long they would update it for and if those updates only covered some bug fixes or new features. It would likely lose in court, waste a bunch of money, possibly force the company out of business and make some lawyer richer.
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| Clavia.se right now wrote: | Future upgrades will include new modules available for free from www.clavia.se.
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They are promising something we know they have no intention to deliver on AT THIS VERY MOMENT as a sales pitch. Sueing them for something like breach of contract would be hard, as you say, but I think you have a good chance if you place the emphasis on the un-ethical advertising.
I don know the English word for "overmacht", the concept of being unable to do something, despite your good intentions, but Clavia *is* able to fix their website, taking that line out would take all of 10 seconds
| Quote: | I think your statement that they 'might not be able to deliver...' could be closer to the real issue. They are a small company in a small industry that is losing money to software rapidly. They are not in the large chain music stores like Guitar Center and Sam Ash ( they will do one off orders but won't stock the full line in all stores) so that cuts them out of a huge market. The electro is fairly popular but the expensive synth market is dead and only tiny companies with extremely low overhead like Dave Smith can do much to survive in that area. They just released a new product so they probably are cash and available personnel low at this time.
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Yeah, but I don have that much pity about this. At the moment they released the G2 it was clear what role software was taking, or rather where PC CPU's were going. In the NM's lifetime PC CPU's made a huge jump and software modulars become common place and ran in realtime. The G2 in the meantime *almost* had double the clock speed of the NM thanks to the US believing we're all trying to make rockets in our back-yard and need DSP chips for this and placing trade restrictions on DSP chips of any significant speed.
To me it was a lost battle from the beginning.
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Wout Blommers
Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4529
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:51 am Post subject:
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| gomidas wrote: | | XpanderXT wrote: | | They are a small company... |
, can somebody comfirm that? I see Clavia RED synths everywere on TV... |
Sometimes, when about shipping a new synth, they hire short contract workers assembling the machines. The firm itself has about 15 men/women working there.
Seeing so much red synths on television means musicians like the instruments. Could also be just a red spot light on a silver synth
Indeed, Clavia synths grow more popular, and mostly the older ones. The NordLead3 is rising in popularity, now it's abandoned...
Wout |
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Wout Blommers
Joined: Sep 07, 2003
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Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:11 am Post subject:
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| Kassen wrote: | | Clavia.se right now wrote: | Future upgrades will include new modules available for free from www.clavia.se.
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They are promising something we know they have no intention to deliver on AT THIS VERY MOMENT as a sales pitch. Sueing them for something like breach of contract would be hard, as you say, but I think you have a good chance if you place the emphasis on the un-ethical advertising.
I don know the English word for "overmacht", the concept of being unable to do something, despite your good intentions, but Clavia *is* able to fix their website, taking that line out would take all of 10 seconds |
Overmacht = supremacy, circumstances beyond one's control.
I found on that site:
| Quote: | SOFTWARE UPGRADE POLICY
Clavia offers every G2 customer free upgrades for both the editor software and the synthesizer’s operating system as well as free access to future sound libraries.
Specifications subject to change without notice |
Wout |
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dasz
Joined: Oct 16, 2004
Posts: 1644
Location: victoria, canada
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ian-s
Joined: Apr 01, 2004
Posts: 2672
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject:
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| lamarcph wrote: | Apparently, signed drivers checking can turned off.
I don't have a winVista64 box to try it, but it should work.
here:
http://searchwincomputing.techtarget.com/tip/0,289483,sid68_gci1254912,00.html
Someday, I will try to install the g2 on my girlfriend vista32 laptop, I may be wrong, but I think it should work because vista32 don't require signed drivers, only vista64( and even then it can apparently be turned off ). |
Driver signing is not the issue. The XP G2 usb driver just doesn't work on Vista32.
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dasz
Joined: Oct 16, 2004
Posts: 1644
Location: victoria, canada
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:40 pm Post subject:
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is anyone at NAMM this week? Have you talked to the Clavia guys yet about all this?
/Dasz |
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XpanderXT
Joined: Oct 22, 2007
Posts: 137
Location: the flat universe
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:15 pm Post subject:
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| Clavia.se right now wrote: | Future upgrades will include new modules available for free from www.clavia.se.
Specifications subject to change without notice |
Wout[/quote]
The first lines though do state clearly something that would be a buying factor for a customer.
The last lines exempts them from this statement.
I went by Clavia's booth and nobody from Clavia was there. The gear was there, it was on, but nobody manning the booth. I'll try to go by tomorrow if I decide to go back.
Arturia's Origin is really cool and sounds great as a side note.
Access Snow looks like a Blofeld at twice the price.
Blofeld looks like Blofeld and sounds great.
Solaris sounds good but is no where near done and will be over the top expensive, $3,495 or so. |
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dasz
Joined: Oct 16, 2004
Posts: 1644
Location: victoria, canada
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:34 pm Post subject:
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I do agree with you about the statement. Vista is a must.
I'm tired now, tomorrow I'm doing my 1st live set in many many years (80% G2x2, 10% Rs7k and 10% Waldorf XT).
/Dasz |
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lamarcph
Joined: Oct 21, 2004
Posts: 40
Location: Montreal, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:30 am Post subject:
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| Quote: | | Driver signing is not the issue. The XP G2 usb driver just doesn't work on Vista32. |
Really? That is really bad.
Is there any drivers yet for the stage or electro? According to my file system when I open the nord stage usb drivers .zip, the "last modified" date is 16th of September 2005.
There is hope:
From the Generic Nord Drivers read-me:
| Quote: |
This generic Nord Driver for Microsoft Windows 2000/XP/Vista operating systems currently supports the nord c1 combo organ and nord wave products. To install, connect the USB cable between your unit and computer and follow the on-screen instructions. |
I would think that maybe they have a plan on adding the other synths in this generic driver. Because right now, according to what I can see, only the C1 and Wave is vista supported and the rest is not. |
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ian-s
Joined: Apr 01, 2004
Posts: 2672
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:28 pm Post subject:
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| lamarcph wrote: | | Quote: | | Driver signing is not the issue. The XP G2 usb driver just doesn't work on Vista32. |
Really? That is really bad.
Is there any drivers yet for the stage or electro? According to my file system when I open the nord stage usb drivers .zip, the "last modified" date is 16th of September 2005.
There is hope:
From the Generic Nord Drivers read-me:
| Quote: |
This generic Nord Driver for Microsoft Windows 2000/XP/Vista operating systems currently supports the nord c1 combo organ and nord wave products. To install, connect the USB cable between your unit and computer and follow the on-screen instructions. |
I would think that maybe they have a plan on adding the other synths in this generic driver. Because right now, according to what I can see, only the C1 and Wave is vista supported and the rest is not. |
In it's current state, the generic driver does not work with the G2. I do have an XP laptop I could use for editing, I just don't have the space to set it up.
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XpanderXT
Joined: Oct 22, 2007
Posts: 137
Location: the flat universe
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:30 pm Post subject:
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Here is what I heard.
They are planning an update to make it Vista and fully Leopard compatible.
It MIGHT happen in the next 6 months. There was no promise though.
The guy was with Clavia US which is probably a distributor without total input to the home office.
The sales in the US of the G2 are very low. Very, very low. I heard the numbers and it is a wonder they still have it in the lineup at all.
It is too bad that more people want a crap synth like a Juno 106 than something that has real possibilities. |
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seraph
Editor
Joined: Jun 21, 2003
Posts: 12398
Location: Firenze, Italy
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:50 am Post subject:
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| XpanderXT wrote: | | I heard the numbers... |
would you, please, elaborate on that?
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v-un-v
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:33 am Post subject:
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| XpanderXT wrote: |
It is too bad that more people want a crap synth like a Juno 106 than something that has real possibilities. |
Well there is an interesting quote.
Real possibilities eh?
Autechre.
Autechre were interviewed in SOS magazine 10 years or so back raving about the Nord Lead 1. They made the point that most people at the time (including SOS) were ranting about how good the Korg Prophecy was, but no one was mentioning the Nord. Then people's ears pricked up, and most people (who I know anyway), who bought a Nord, then they moaned about how much the Nord sounded like Autechre!
Anyway, Autechre's no.1 synth before the taking the Lead was a Juno 106. The Juno has appeared on a whole load of Autechre's LP's- including those (I would think) that used a Nord Lead and or Modular (it certainly sounds like it).
One of the things that Clavia were keen to point out when the G2 was released is that Clavia had realised that the majority of players who were likely to buy a new synth only wanted a preset that they could tweak. When the G2 came along, it had been engineered to meet that specification, but to have deeper power under the bonnet so to speak.
However, I'm not surprised at the 'poor sales figures' at all and you'll also probably find that the majority of those who bought a G2, for its powerful synthesis capabilities, are those who are here on electro-music.com.
Nothing is ever perfect and a good musician or artist should be able to make good music or art with whatever gear or equipment they have. FWIW, Brian Eno's AKS was delivered with a couple of 'faults' in it. Whenever he had it serviced he would ask the engineers not to fix the 'problem', because he had come to find that 'problem' part of his sound. 
Personally, I raise a large glass to Clavia (I know that they are watching and reading this too), I raise a toast to Clavia for having the inspiration to put out such a cool device in the first place. I don't blame Clavia either for wanting to pull this product either.
IMO, all this moaning is just so negative. Guys, just get out there and make some good music instead of complaining about what you don't have.
Less is more!
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